In this new season of our podcast, we chat about how to move through the highs and lows, summer and winter, or feast and famine periods in our businesses.

We chat about:

• Why highs and lows are inevitable when running a business.
• How to navigate the lows with grace, awareness, introspection and self-care.
• Supercharging our gratitude practice during our winter seasons.
• The need for cultivating curiosity, joy and finding inspiration.
• How to discern between following our inspiration versus shiny object syndrome.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Donaji: All right, we are back. I feel like we've taken a year off.

Jo: It has almost been about a year off.

Donaji: That's, wow. That's wild. I didn't really think about how long it's, I think it's been since, I think October, September.

Jo: October. Mm-hmm.

Donaji: We are back. We are excited to give back on track. So many things happened good, bad, all around that have has sort of forced us into taking a break longer than we had anticipated.

But I think it's been good to take a break, focus on other things, but also revisit why we are doing this in the first place. Right? We had that little chat about what we wanna get out of this and where this is going, and that was really good to kind of look back at what we've done and, and think about the future.

Jo: Mm. Yeah. And it's just been really nice to reflect on sort of what's worked well, and sort of the little things that we could change what we wanna talk about more. It's really exciting actually, because I feel like this is a combination of all the lessons that we learned from doing the podcast last year and seeing really good feed, like getting good feedback and seeing like, you know, week on week this people who are tuning in and certain episodes like resonated more with the audience than other episodes. 

So it is all been really, really wonderful. I think it's been very insightful. And I'm really excited. I think like there's a real, like spring energy to the podcast at this stage because it feels like we're coming out of that sort of aspect of like, reflection and there's like a nice plan in place, some good new ideas on what we wanna bring forward for the new season of the podcast. 

What are some of the things that you've been up to, I guess, like, it'll be nice just to give everyone a little bit of an update on sort of what has happened in the last like eight months, six months.

Donaji: Well, starting with. Personally had, you know, had a hard time with loss and grieving, and so that really pushed me to take a break and to slow things down. And I'm so grateful to have had that time to be able to, to be able to take that time, I should say, for myself and to really think about how I wanted to take care of myself.

Because I think the tendency is to sort of ignore or like just keep going, because you know, you have a business and things need to keep moving. But, you know, I think I got to a point where I realized I needed some help because I was just so overwhelmed with emotions and I was holding so much inside that I needed to get the stuff out, you know, and it's something that you can't really, at least for me, I couldn't really talk to people about and I didn't really want to. And so I looked for a therapist and I started doing that in January. And then at the same time, realizing, you know, how much more I needed to take care of myself and my health.

So then I started a gym membership with a trainer. I feel like I started so many things at once. And so that has really helped me and I said, okay, this year I really wanna focus on taking care of myself mentally and physically, and prioritizing that. Not just as this self-care thing or because I have to, but really thinking of the future and how, what I wanna feel like in the future and how I want the rest of my life to be.

You know, kind of thinking of just the quality of life that I wanna live. As I get older. So I really wanna put those habits into motion now so it, it's easier to maintain in the future hopefully. So that's a big part of that. And then I think I'm, I mean, I guess I'm just continuing with my coaching program.

Still working on business, trying to figure out how, how to come back to social media, because I want to, but I also have a very, dysfunctional relationship with it, you know, that I don't want to, and then I do want to. So that's that I'm working on some marketing things, revamping my website. It's ready to go. 

I just need to like update some copy working on my messaging. That's been a big thing the past month. That's been really good and interesting to do that while at the same time to doing some therapy work cause a lot of things came up that I wasn't really expecting very much. And then I told you, uh, before, but I had said I wasn't gonna plant anything this season and I gave in. so like two weeks ago I went and I was watching something, uh, on YouTube and I was, sometimes I'm like, I'm tired of watching shows at, I just wanna watch YouTube shows. And I watched this guy, this British guy, like learn how to garden in his tiny little garden and he grew all this stuff. And I'm like, I'm gonna go grow stuff.

So I went and I bought like tons of things and I spent all weekend planting. So the past couple of weeks have been like very focused on the garden, and so I'm excited about that.

Jo: That's so good

Donaji: So in that sense, it really does feel like spring.

Jo: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's always nice to get into the garden, I think, because it's such a lovely break from working, right? Like we do so much as business owners. I think we spend so much time in the office, like we were talking about how like, like you were saying, like you didn't leave the office, right?

Like today.

Donaji: Today was a tough day. Yeah.

Jo: And yesterday that was how it was like, oh, not yesterday, the day before. That was how it was like for me, I was, I felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants, like trying to get things finished. And I remember feeling like my heart was racing at one point, cuz I was like trying to do all the things.

So yeah, I feel like. When you have that time to completely get out of your home space or the office space, it's completely different. Right.

Donaji: Oh, it's so calming.

Jo: Calming. Yeah.

Donaji: Like grounding, centering. Yeah, I feel, oh, I was talking to a friend about that. Just a quick note on like how, you know, I hadn't, I said that I wasn't going to invest in the garden anymore because it, the result of what I wanted to get, I didn't get as much as I wanted to. But I was so focused on the end goal and the results and the things that I was gonna get, like tangible things, right?

That I forgot that the process and the journey of it gave me so much. And so that, that alone was so valuable that I'm like spending, you know, a hundred dollars or $200 on a garden for the entire year. It's such a good investment for like mentally, because I spend so much time out there.

Like it's meditative, it's restoring, it's energizing. Centering. And so there's so much that happens that you get that it's not really tangible. And that it's not just about, you know, harvesting things.

Jo: Oh, that's such a good point. Yeah. Yeah. It was so focused on the harvest.

Donaji: Yeah. Well, cause you're like, I want my ROI.

Jo: Yeah, exactly.

Donaji: Exactly. What about you, Jo? What have you been up to?

Jo: Well, I've also put in my plants my seedlings for autum. And I'm very excited about that. 

Donaji: Me and I have like, your list is so long. There was some things that I'm like, oh, I wanna plant that too. 

Jo: A lot of those are experimental. Yeah. Yeah. So we haven't done it before. Like some of the things like the brussel sprouts and all of that kind of stuff. So we're just gonna go and see how it is, like, see how it goes. I feel like I, I think gardening teaches us you're so right about this and that there's so many lessons to be gleaned from it.

And it teaches me so much about my business in that it's this element of experimentation. There's trial and error, curiosity.

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: Leaning into the things that excite you a little bit as well. Like, my partner's very excited about the prospect of having brussels sprouts in the garden. So that's why we're, we're trying it.

Yeah. And there's lots of like little things that we're doing a little bit differently in the garden just to see what works a bit better, but we're kind of open to the outcome either way. Except for the fact that my dog dug up like a bunch of the brussel sprouts, which was disappointing.

Donaji: No.

Jo: Yeah.

Donaji: Oh.

Jo: Uh, but aside from gardening, I think we went away.

My partner and I went away to Bali in, at the end of the year. We've been busy planning for our weddings, so there's like a lot of…

Donaji: You got engaged! Hello!

Jo: Got engaged! Yeah! Yeah. So that's been really exciting. Thank you. And so now it's like the, the planning and the implementation, uh, implementation starting.

And then at the same time, like the business. Stuff keeps going so there's been a lot of focus and refocus on refining the business. So last year I worked really, really hard and this year my goal is to see if I can get the same like result as last year without the amount of effort that it, like how can I make it feel more useful and more peaceful to my soul?

How could I refine my business in a way where things feel like there is a greater sense of flow and it doesn't feel like I'm like working myself into the late evenings because I did that quite a bit last year. So because of that goal, it's encouraged me to do a few more courses on optimizing and systemizing my business.

And I'm also doing some more study around design and the offerings, refining the positioning, so similar to you refining the messaging, all of those things. So I feel like tightening that strategy up a little bit, but also leaving space for things to be a little bit open-ended and playing with what you know could happen or like experimenting with different things.

I think I'm really open to that as well. So I think those are the themes that are coming up and I think this leads into nicely into the topic of today's episode, which is all about like navigating those like intense highs and those sort of really like. loaves that we might experience in our business as entrepreneurs and business owners and creatives.

And I think like going through a period of like, really, like quite a lull in my business, it felt like the start of this year, my offerings were working, but the people coming through, I noticed like not everybody was as quick to book in a spot to work with me or, and it kind of happened like pretty suddenly over the, course of like, say a month.

And there's lots of reasons for why this could be, which I we'll get to in a little bit. But eventually what it meant was I saw less work coming through, so  clients were still booking, but they were booking like smaller projects or we were working for, like, essentially we weren't doing like the bigger sort of design packages or the services that I'm used to offering.

It also got to a point where I felt like I didn't have any clients coming in. There were no like discovery course booked or anything like that. And I think it just made me feel like very alone in my business, which is why I think this is a good topic to think, to talk about and to discuss openly because I know I'm not alone because there's been a lot of other people who've been going through a similar thing.

It's almost that slower period versus that coming out of a really intense, busy period. This slow period can actually feel really scary and almost that sense of unknown of what is to come can feel very isolating. So that's kind of what I wanna chat about. It's more of the mindset stuff and whether we have a business who offers services or whether it's products.

And I know a lot of my clients with product-based businesses, they've also noticed like a slowdown in sales. So whether it's that or whether you are finding that you're not getting as many customers or clients that you used to, I think this is still a relevant conversation.

Donaji: Yeah, and I think too, it's something that…like you said, it can make you feel so alone in your business when you don't have the community support around you to remind you that, you know, owning a business it’s, the whole process is just ebbs and flows of, you know, and it's just reminding ourselves that this is normal, this happens. What can we do to prepare ourselves or to you know, what, what can we do during that time? You know, whether it's like mentally or physically or in our business or whatever it is to help us get through that period of time or use that time, you know, for other things, whatever…

Jo: Mm.

Donaji: Whatever that looks like, you know, depending on how we're feeling. So I think definitely is something that everybody can relate to because we've all been there and we'll probably be there many times throughout our business journey.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah, and I think like it's. Often a cycle, right? Like we go through this sort of period every year or every few years. And it's not necessarily directly related to something we're doing or not doing in our business. Like we often think that our offerings aren't good enough or we're not working hard enough, or we're not putting out all into the business.

But sometimes it's just a reaction to what's happening around the world, like from an economic perspective, which is, I think this is sort of where, what I've noticed in this cycle of low. I feel like a lot of it is economically driven just because from the conversations I've had with people, people tend to be a bit more concerned of sort of what financially.

It's coming up for them and that's sort of what is governing their reasons for investing in their business right now versus kind of holding off. But regardless of the cycle, there's lots of different things that could be influencing that.

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: So let's dive in a little bit more in terms of, I guess like what we are experiencing or what personally. I’ve been experiencing during this low. And that's really coming out of like the high intense phase of feeling very busy. So I feel like it was driven a little bit from me feeling probably quite burnt out towards the end of the year.

And I noticed that for me, my energy. Is very aligned, like however I'm feeling energetically manifests itself in the flow and health of my business to a certain extent. Of course, the environmental economy, all of that kind of stuff feeds into the picture. But I definitely notice that my energy has a big part to play in how I show up in my business, , and how excited I am to take on new projects and how much space, like energetic space I have.

I've been feeling this probably for the last few months, I would say, like coming out of Bali, I was out of Bali, out of Thailand, I think I want a holiday in Bali.

Donaji: Well, you did say you went to Bali, you did. But I remember you had said Thailand and I was like, oh, maybe I just, uh, misremembered.

Jo: No, I feel like I'm planning, I'm planning my next holiday in my head, but I distinctly actually went to Thailand. So yeah, we were there for about two weeks. I felt very refreshed, but I think coming back into the new year, I felt a really strong desire for space and I wanted to manifest the spaciousness in my life again.

And it was probably coming from the fact that I wanted to get some clarity around the business, the direction of my business. , and so while I was like tinkering away, uh, I noticed that I felt less motivated to kind of share my work online. I was less motivated to post on Instagram or like engage on social media, so I even like took those apps off my phone.

I felt very like, what's the word? Like introspective? During that period of time. And it also married with the fact that I wasn't getting as many calls or inquiries coming through. So, I got the space, but I was scared at the same time. 

Donaji: Did you pinpoint how this started or did it start from like a personal, was it like a personal thing or was more like business driven, overwhelmed by like, work or being burned out by work and or social media, or was this something else? Like, did you feel like, you know, cause sometimes I feel like, at least for me, I have these moments of clarity where I'm just, I kind of get myself out of the rat race. You know, from just like, almost like a bird's eye view into my life and just realizing that I've been going, going, going for, you know, months or days or even just the realizing that you do it so much that you're not taking time to like live and think about other things besides work. 

And that can get me down a little bit because I realize, I wish, you know, I didn't have to really be so in my business sometimes that I could talk about other things or think about other things that I, you know, I remember like when I had a nine to five, it was just easy.

You just leave all that and you come home and you didn't think about work at least on what you have to do. So there's more mental space to think about other things, but also like spending time and doing other things. And I feel like when we have the space to do other things, we fill it up with more work and then I feel like it's still contributing to this rat race.

So that was just wondering, like did you feel that happening from that point of view, or was it just like burning out from just working so much that you needed to like take a break from everything?

Jo: Yeah, I think it was mainly from burning out a little bit. I wasn't completely burnt out, but I felt like I was lacking or low, feeling lethargic and low on energy. And I felt..

Donaji: Like physically and mentally?

Jo: Yeah, both, both. And it got to a point where I almost was like scared about whether I had the energetic capacity to like take on more clients or take on more work.

And I guess that's why I was very intentional about the clients in the projects that I did take on. So I only like, took on specific projects, which I knew, okay, I have the energy to do this and I want to do these projects so I can dedicate my, my time to them. But then I, that was really different to maybe how I was operating the year before, whereas kind of like opening.

Up the gates and being like, you know, like, anyone with any project, like I'm here. Like I have infinite energy to spend. So it was just more discerning about the types of projects that I wanted to work on. And I think coming back from Thailand, Thailand really reset how I wanted to feel.

Like I wanted to feel a sense of curiosity again and creativity again. I think sometimes when we're working on client projects, because we are essentially refining our framework, sometimes I think creativity and curiosity is taken away from strategic refinement. It's like I've been optimizing and making my, my framework work as efficiently and as intelligently as possible to get a really streamlined process for my clients and for me, which felt really good.

But I kind of missed the sort of process of just like seeing what happens if I tried X, Y, Z, and because it doesn't strategically fit into a streamlined framework. I was like, no, I can't just try this for the, sake that I wanted to. I had to kind of make sure everything's strategically lined up before I decided to do something or not.

So it kind of took away like that essence of I guess, how I felt initially when I started my business, where I was very much more experimental in the kind of things that I did just to see like what the result was outta curiosity.

Donaji: Are you mainly talking about the types of clients that you're allowed to, you're allowing yourself to take in, to give you that sort of creative spark? By not being so strategic with who you work with? Like what do you mean by being strategic with those things?

Jo: Yeah, that's a great question. So it wasn't about the clients cause I knew there was certain, like clients that I absolutely love to surf, that I know that they will get the results and the transformation that they want in their, in their business and in their vision. So I guess the experimentation was more from like, The aspect of creating like content and passive income.

So it was probably more internal. Yeah. And it was like things I wanted to try in my business, but I was like, no, not strategically a good use of my time right now. So drop that and do this because this is going to give you a bigger, uh, return on investment. Right, so I really miss that. I miss that meandering, like dreamlike essence that I used to bring to, to that aspect of my business.

And it's probably more of the personal development side, personally, like learning about things I had been implementing what I was learning for so long. And so like one of the things that I decided to go back to was actually spending this time where there was a bit more space and it. It felt more spacious for me to actually do a little bit of learning again, which was actually so nice and I really missed that.

So I signed up to a few courses. I'm always like a bit of a course queen, but and I love…

Donaji: I know. I'm like, you're saying like I love learning. I'm like, You're always learning. You're always taking a course. Like when have you stopped?

Jo: That's true, that's true. I guess in the past if I was busy with client projects, I probably would've kind of dipped in and out of a course. I would like learn only the things that I needed to. That was gonna help move the client forward in the project, so that was gonna be helpful. But this time I think my approach was like deep learning and it was really different to the approach that I asked.

And so I feel like even though I noticed like a real sort of low in the business part, at the start of the year and my motivation was low for that part of my business, I still noticed like a glimmer of excitement for the things that sparked some sort of creativity and joy. And that was, yeah, through like, and probably what you were saying around like having that community and the support of the community, I think that was really important because I hadn't felt that for a long time where I could kind of get sort of feedback on something or get coached on something like that was really, really, really nice. Like, yeah.

Donaji: Or even just like you said, like, hey, and like, I'm feeling so burned out because I'm feeling that this is happening. You know? And a lot of times I feel that when you're in a community of business owners, they can remind us that it might feel so internal, like, like this is happening to me, and I have no control over it, or whatever.

And sometimes it's like, it's just kind of a reminder of it doesn't, I'm just thinking of a specific situation. Like let's say, you're not getting enough clients or something like nobody's calling or whatever and so it might feel like this big thing that's happening to you, but they're, by being in community, it might remind us that like, it's not, a thing that might be happening in the world that it just might be, I don't know, like whatever it is.

Like it could, it's, it's not just you, but it's also not like a situation that you don't have control over. And like, and I'm saying this because I've had this conversation in other communities and I think it makes us kind of calm down. And remind us like, oh, actually I am okay. Like, here are some things I can do.

Or like, you know, it's just a tough time right now, but I can work on this or not feel alone. And, and it sometimes it's just like that back and forth that, where you have understanding of the situation, of the feeling, so when you, when you don't have that, I think it's really hard to remind, remember that it's not just specific to you.

There's like so many other people that might be going through the same thing or that have gone through it and they have ideas of perspective to help you get through.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. I think feeling like there were other people who could share different perspectives was so important. Because yeah, there was a point where I was like, oh, like I always have this thought when I go through a low, in my peer in, in my business, there's this like thought of like, okay, what is it?

The jig is up. It's time to like…

Donaji: Right, like your business is done.

Jo Yeah.

Donaji: I need to go look for a job.

Jo: So weird. Yeah. And I was like, ok, I guess I, I guess everybody I'm out. Like, that was, that was like a feeling that I had when I, and it, the funny thing was, it wasn't even like a long, long time of no inquiries. It was maybe like a few weeks of like lower inquiries or lower engagement.

And it created a lot of fear, even like that change, because I wasn't, I wasn't expecting it and I didn't know what was gonna happen after that.

Donaji: It's scary. Especially when you've been like, you know, you've been working so hard and it's been nonstop, and then all of a sudden it's just completely quiet, you know? It is scary cause, you’re just like oh my gosh, what is happening? You know?

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like there was an identity of really. Not just the fear, but it was me identifying that it was like, I don't feel like I'm good enough. Right? That was like the, the driving belief and it was the place that I go to when kinda shit hits a fan, I go back to this feeling of not being good enough and I'm like, you know what?

All the work that I did, like I can never be as good as, you know, whoever I see on Instagram doing amazing things, having a perfect business. And then I start to see like all the examples and this is like how our mindset is so important. Like having a healthy mindset is so important because like our thoughts can really play a lot of tricks on us.

But I noticed, like I was going through my house and I'm like, well it's probably cause my desk's face doesn't look great. It doesn't look professional. I'm wearing it a hoodie like most days, so I'm not dressed professionally. You know, it's all of these…

Donaji: Not taking myself seriously.

Jo: Yeah. I'm not taking myself seriously. I'm not investing enough on coaching.

Like all of these things, I was just making myself feel so bad in that moment. And it was just like opening up this like big, big hole of like feeling like, 

Donaji: Self-doubt.

Jo: Yeah. Self-doubt. And it was very, yeah, it was very uncomfortable to be in that space but I wanted to also share like how I navigated through it.

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: Because I feel like even though it was really uncomfortable, there were still moments where I was excited about things and I was excited to learn and I was excited about, you know, what. My business was gonna look like, I wanted to do planning. Like I was still excited about all those things but it was almost this feeling of, I guess everyone in our in business will go through those seasonal changes of like, autumn, spring, summer, winter.

And I loved what you said right at the start about like, it's not about the harvest. You know, we plant our seedlings because we have an intention initially to like harvest all that we can from our garden. And I think that was my expectation of my business was I put in so much work, I put in so much effort, so let me like harvest as much as possible.

But I was really like forgetting that there was so much beyond just the number of clients or the number of projects that you book. That's. Yeah, that's part of it, but there's so much other stuff that comes with that as well.

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: And yeah, I think that was a big lesson in, in terms of the fact that your business is a whole, right?

It's not just one deliverable that you do at the end that makes your business what it is. So that, that was a, a realization I just had have now actually, that aspect of linking it back to the harvest.

Donaji: I'm wondering about, I know that you, you have other stuff that you wanna mention about this part, but I'm wondering. We've talked about shiny object syndrome in the past.

Jo: Mm.

Donaji: So I think it would be interesting to talk about the balance between, at least for you, cause I'm sure everybody else manages this differently, the difference between having a vision for a business, having goals in, in place, and working towards that and being, being mindful and strategic about it, or I should say intentional about that.

And when you're in a place like this where you feel like almost craving like creative freedom or sort of like to kind of break loose from that structure that you've been working on so much. How do you see, like, how do you balance this? You know, trying to take time to do something different, to shake things off versus staying on track, you know?

Do you see the shiny object syndrome, or are you intentionally taking time to sort of recharge your creative imagination or just like hunger?

Jo: Oh, that's such a good question because I feel like we always wanna steer clear of shiny object syndrome.

Donaji: Yeah, cause you were, you were talking about like how you were this is all like, creativity within the way that you're, things that you're doing for your business, right? Like being creative within your business. Not like, you're gonna design stuff just for fun, but more like, how can I do things differently?

You know, or like, you know, things that are fun or whatever. Not being so strategic about it. Right. So like, In my mind, I'm always going like, well, if I were to do that, I would feel like I would be wasting my time because how do I know that that's going to be a distraction? You know, from the things that I know that I need to take care of first or prioritize at the same time, understanding like this could be a good thing.

Jo: Mm. I actually found it really hard to stick to the goal that I set, which was like, you're gonna deliver X, Y, Z. These are the projects that you're gonna focus on. You have to get this done within the, I think my energy and my mindset was kind of like giving me a bit of a spin. And at this, at that stage, I was like, I'm either not feeling like I either felt completely unmotivated to do.

I. Anything related to those goals, like it was so hard and every day I was like feeling energetically drained and exhausted. Even thinking about potentially like tackling one of those things on my strategic list of priorities that I just couldn't do it. And I know that in, in like the Ryan Holidays book of discipline, he's like, you know, you dev, like discipline is a tool and it's a muscle that you develop.

I just felt like my muscle maths like completely went away during this period of time. I had no discipline muscle mass at all. , but the only thing that I could do at that time was I was like, okay, if I am feeling completely, like energetically exhausted about that, entertaining, that idea of like sticking to my goals. What's the next best alternative right now, because I wanna still do something. And so I kind of allowed myself to get a little bit messy in the process of learning, and I was starting to learn more about positioning, messaging at a deeper level than I did in the past. Like really niching and it was just all these concepts that I had worked on but I had still a lot of questions around, okay, well how does this tie into this?

Or how does this piece link back into this? How do I extract this out into the strategy for my clients? Like, I had all these like little missing like links or like, like threads to these concepts and I was like, okay, well I'm excited about potentially, I. Exploring this further, this will help me deliver a better experience at the end of the day to my clients.

And it'll be something that I can kind of like start to explore a little bit from my own business as well. And I just allowed myself to get kind of messy in that I had like pages of notes, this is probably the first time in a long, in a long, long time where I was just like taking notes, referencing different articles.

What's someone's version of messaging? What's someone else's version of messaging? How does this tie back into positioning? What does this mean? I was like, oh, it got me very overwhelmed, but in a good way. It was messy and imperfect and like kind of raw cuz there was all these pieces that I didn't know really what to do with at the time.

But because I was excited about this, I gradually started to like distill it down because that was kind of what I'm excited, uh, I was drawn to doing. And eventually like it infused into a new process and a new sort of offering for my clients, something that feels even better than it did before. So I don't feel like, yeah, I don't feel like it was a shiny object moment.

And it could have been that if I just wanted to do something that was like completely unrelated, but I knew that this was still related to the overall like direction. So I guess like if we have a vision, I think we're always gonna know if we're doing something that is completely off

Donaji: Outside. Yeah,

Jo: Outside that vision. So I think an example of something I would be doing that would be a shiny object. Project would probably be like researching TikTok, which is not in my strategy and would never be, but doing something like that in my business, like I know that would definitely be a distraction versus something that could be potentially mm.

Donaji: Yeah. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. And I love how you kind of decided I'm gonna get messy and still, you're still in this curiosity, I guess path, you know, to try to learn something that is related, but it's not necessarily something that you had a goal to do and that's interesting enough to keep you moving forwards versus just completely stop, which it's fine.

I think sometimes you need that. I mean, I had to take a break. We all do at some point, and I think the shiny object syndrome part is like, you know, when you know what you have to do and you're, like you said, picking all these unrelated things that are really not gonna contribute at all to what you are.

To what you're doing. At the same time, I feel like it's nice to intentionally take time to play and explore and be creative, whether it is in the same way or in a different way to, like you said, like shake things off and I don't know, it can get you in a different path, you know, and, and help you see things with a different perspective, which that's something I would love to do more of and need to take more time to do, cause I definitely need it.

And it's always refreshing too, like whether it's design or not design, but, yeah, I think, I love that. 

You were kind of talking about moments of, that we all experience obviously. But I think like you're talking about things like within your business feeling, not stuck, but just, I don't know. It sounds like when I was thinking of what you were saying, it just, it reminded me of sometimes I look at everything and it's just, there's just so much to do and it never, the path towards what we're going, working towards seems so endless that that can, that alone, just thinking of that alone, can be so overwhelming regardless of all the amazing things that you've done.

You know cause you're always thinking of the next thing and the next thing and the next thing that sometimes breaking away from that. And just like you said, focusing slightly, pivoting in like one little thing can feel, can, I don't know, help you. Get out of that like tunnel vision.

Jo: Yeah. Like there's two sort of examples that I think, uh, and one I did at a different stage. So this was like a few years ago, but it was a course on color theory, and it's called color for creatives and it is the most beautiful little course.

Donaji: I remember when you told me you were taking that.

Jo: Yeah, and I would say that was an example of something that was specific because it didn't open up like cans of idea worms, like the messaging, the niching, the positioning, the offering exploration that I just did did like that was really messy and can feel very overwhelming and also very scary because essentially it throws your whole business into a rebrand of some sort when you start thinking.

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: Whereas like doing something like colorful creators, it was this one aspect of my brand identity process that I felt like I wanted a little bit more of a framework around. Because I was picking colors for clients at that stage, but not really knowing why I was picking them. And I wasn't really wanting to go with something that's like, oh, well red always means x, y, z, so we always need to use, it's so limiting.

So I wanted a little bit more depth into a f a workable framework, and that was a really beautiful course, but it was like, there was an essence around that where maybe it was like, it was kind of on its own little silo, so it didn't like sprout out so many other things that I had to like, update my whole business to make space for it.

It was just one part of my business. So, yeah, I guess it, it feels scary to do something that is completely overwhelming and like, messy and all of that kind of stuff. Then maybe it's around picking like smaller silo projects to help you get that creative load back as much as possible. 

The other thing that I did recently was the voice acting class. And that was just for fun. That was just personal development and that was so lovely because it just got you into your body, it got you back into your breath. And it's one step closer to me getting on Broadway. So that's a win in my book.

Donaji: I can't wait.

Jo: I'll do Broadway by like the age of 70.

Donaji That's okay. It's never too late. Are you practicing your, uh, exercises?

Jo: There's not that much like daily exercise to do. It's kind of like in the moment of like being aware of where your breath is sitting. So it's like an ongoing thing, and I think that was a really beautiful practice. Yeah. Yeah.

Donaji: That, that's what I mean. Are you, are you, are you finding easy, finding it easier for you to remember to do it when you are speaking to someone?

Jo: In some cases, yes. Like for the podcast, I would say there's still points where I'm like, no, you gotta relax your belly, like through your belly again. Because I, I noticed that I like slump and like the posture kind of changes your voice. So it's all of those like little things, right? So, but that was another example of like, more of a siloed project that was interesting, but still like relevant to like how we present and like how I deliver to clients, like presentations and things.

Donaji: And that can affect your confidence, which is great.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think like the main things was to like find that sense of community again. And I guess for me it was also around like talking to friends and family and being like open about sort of what I was feeling when I was feeling it, rather than sort of like bottling it up.

And I would say like, if you are noticing that you feel like the, you know, those like. Little like early signs where you are like, uh, I don't feel a hundred percent myself. I think like always speaking to like a professional is gonna be really helpful. And there's, in Australia, there's lots of free services, like Beyond Blue.

There's Partners in Wellbeing. I did like a counseling, a free counseling course with like, it's almost like a government initiative where you can do six counseling sessions over the course of like four months. And that's a free offering for business owners. Yeah, there's a few out there in Australia.

So I would say that there are always resources. But yeah, speak with a professional if you feel like you need to and you're not feeling a hundred percent yourself. So I just booked in another c session with a counselor for Monday. I've been speaking to my coach, attending group coaching sessions, all of those kind of things to make me feel like I have a support system around.

Donaji: Yeah,

Jo: I think that was, that really helps.

Donaji: That's really important to be, sometimes we can't put words to the feeling that we're experiencing. And I think having other people, especially a professional obviously like ask, so you can kind of dive into it a little bit more and then you start to realize, or discover, I guess, where some of this stuff is stemming from. It has been really helpful for me in the past.

Jo: Mm-hmm.

Donaji: Do we have any closing thoughts?

Jo: Yeah. I guess my main thing around. This was, and it's not necessarily a, a closing thought, but it was something that I did soon as I felt like it's something felt off. I do this gratitude practice. I kind of supercharge it. And I was

Donaji: How do you supercharge gratitude practice?

Jo: I'm like, how can I make this work more efficiently?

Donaji: Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.

Jo: It’s my engineering brain? So I have this practice where I write down everything that has manifested for me already. Where it's related to work where it's related to youth, like wellness, family, all those buckets of my life. And it's not just your gratitude practice in that you are like grateful for like, stay and all of that kinda stuff, but it's like things that you're noticing has changed in your life.

So it might not be the harvest that you are writing down. It doesn't need to be the final result. It's the tiny step that you are seeing in yourself. And it might, it might be so subtle, but you notice it and other people might not even know that that exists. So it might be the fact that like, some of my examples were like, someone sent an inquiry form through, they didn't even book a call maybe, but like, they sent me an inquiry form and I'm like, yes.

Like I got like an inquiry form. I like, I had the opportunity to receive it,

Is moving in my favor. Or it might be the fact that, someone liked, like one of our podcast episodes all gave us good feedback or gave us like a critique on our podcast and like, yes, that, that's another one for the bucket.

So I kind of like find all those things that help me shift my perspective from seeing this experience as like devoid of excitement or energy or alignment to a position of. What is going well in my life? What is happening that's in my favor? Because it's really easy to do the other way where you're like, eh, my desk is a mess, I have no, like, I'm wearing a hoodie every day, like blah, blah blah, like all of those things. But it's very, uh, it's a much more conscious effort to shift our focus towards the things that are manifesting. And all of these, like little gratitude manifestations, they become bigger and bigger and there's a snowball effect.

So the next thing you might write would be like, I got on a call with someone, like a prospective client.

Donaji: Mm-hmm.

Jo: You know, we got on a call together and it's like, I didn't even book the job, but I just got on a call with them. That's like a huge win already. So I kind of write that down every day. And by the end of like the journaling practice, I'm pretty.

Excited about sort of the opportunities that might happen in that way. So that helped so much. It shifts my energy completely, probably within like seven days. I notice a huge shift and it becomes easier to like, lean towards things that I want to do. It's easier, again to take like those small steps for discipline towards the projects that I wanted to work on, but didn't have the energy to do initially.

So I would say those, those would be like the closing thoughts.

Donaji: That reminds me of, uh, so I have a wins database and Notion where I put. Anything that happened that was good, that's a, I would consider a win. Small or big, tiny or giant. But also, your…a sunshine folder on your desktop where you throw all the nice, kind things that people say about you, whether it is a coworker, a colleague, a client, social media, people, you know, that feedback, whatever it is. I think that going through those things remind you of what you are capable of doing that like…when you've been in business for so long and you remember, like, what has happened that has gone like the bad times or the tough times. 

Most, I would say, at least for me, I can't speak for everybody, but a lot of times we focus on the negative part, but when you look at all the incredible things that have happened, there's so much more there than, you know, the, the toughest parts. So when, like you said, it's like shifting that mindset or energy of thinking or perspective into something that’s, fills you with, uh, confidence and reassurance that you are, that you're amazing, you know, and that amazing things happen to you and that you work with amazing people and that you've been able to build a business and you've been able to sustain a business, whether you can continue doing it or not, you've done something huge, like owning a business is so big, you know, and it's such a, it's so, I feel like it's such a, it's such a risk and because it's such a risk, it's such a brave thing to do, to put yourself in this position to carry this thing out and, and like see if it works, you know?

Jo: Oh.

Donaji: Because sometimes it's like, not the worst thing can happen, but one of the worst things that can happen is that it, it doesn't work out and that you have to look for a job.

And that's totally fine, but I think I love the approach of what you said, in combination also with all these other things that we can kind of use in our tool, put in our tool, tool belt to use for us to like, remind ourselves of, that it's gonna be all right.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's the biggest reminder, right? That regardless of. Whether it's, sometimes it can be easier. I was just gonna say like in the the gratitude, manifestation, supercharged journaling practice, that it doesn't have to be an external thing. It doesn't have to be that someone compliments us.

It could be like what you said, like, what did I do? How did I feel? Like what's something that came from me? That's enough. Yeah. I love that.

Donaji: yeah. You know, one exercise, just real quick before we go, this was really interesting to me. So in therapy, she asked me, say 10 things that, she said like, name 10 things that you are either good at or that you like about yourself. Something like that. That was really difficult.

Jo: Mm-hmm.

Donaji: So hard to think. And she said, I have two minutes left and I have another client and I'm not leaving until you finish the 10th. So it put a lot of pressure on me to like, think of things. And that…

Jo: What did you say?

Donaji: Oh really, Jo?

Jo: Yes, yes! Yeah, I think that please like, or even if you can't remember all of them, like what were some of the things that…

Donaji: Mean, I probably should have written them down because I think this would be a good exercise for this kind of thing.

But I, I don't know. I, I wrote like things that I, I appreciate about myself, like I'm organized and I'm, I'm thoughtful about other people and I, and I am empathetic and I really care about my friends and family, and my clients.

Like I really do care about them. And just like, I don't know, there's more in there that I can't remember, but I think it's really hard to center yourself in that way. And I feel like we should do that more often.

Jo: Mm mm It is, isn't it? Because even like, I think talking about it is hard, right?

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: Cause it's like, oh, well what were those? What were those words? You're like, aaah!

Donaji: Yeah.

Jo: You know?

Donaji Yeah? Like, what?

Jo: Yeah.

Donaji: Everything feels so normal. Like, oh, well, everybody's like that. You know what I mean?

Jo: But that's, yeah. And I think we all feel like that about everybody else. You know? Like we’re all…

Donaji: It's easier to, it's easier to tell others than to tell ourselves. For sure. Or like just recognize it.

Jo: Yeah.

Donaji: Yeah. Well, I wanna thank you for sharing so much about this. I think, I hope people, can connect to it and enjoy it and appreciate that. So thank you for walking us through all of it.

I know, I know I did for sure see myself in, in that. So thanks for sharing. Do you wanna say anything else before we go?

Jo: Yeah, so we've got more episodes coming up.

Donaji: We do??

Jo: We do, we do! Uh, we have a few that we've planned. And yeah, we're excited to start the new season again. And I think this is, yeah, it's a lovely way to start off the new season, with yeah, looking forwards to seeing sort of what comes up, being creative, being open and curious as well.

So join us in our next follow up episodes on the podcast.

Donaji: See you next time!

Jo: Bye!