In this jam-packed episode, we chat about how to increase your prices in a way that feels authentic, aligned and expansive for your comfort zone. We invite you to take a different perspective on what increasing pricing actually means not just for your business but for how you want to live your life and serve your best customers.

We chat about:

• Why you need to look at profitability and efficiency (not just pricing) in your business
• How to determine the pricing of your offerings
• How to allow for growth as your business and offerings change over time
• Limiting beliefs when it comes to money and seeing your true worth
• Tips on improving profitability in your business.

---

---

TRANSCRIPT:

Donaji: Hey everyone. We are here to talk about increasing your prices. So I said, we can't say we're so excited to talk about this topic because we always say that at the beginning of it, but it's true. It like we are excited to talk about this topic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we're gonna talk about increasing your prices and what does that mean?

The reason we wanted to talk about this is because we all do this. And sometimes there are obstacles along the way. What it means is increasing your prices, your list price, the price that you want to sell to your customer, and obviously with that increasing profit profitability. I'm gonna have a very difficult time saying that word, by the way.

Jo: It's tricky, isn't it? There's so many consonants.

Donaji: constant, yeah, I know. Consonants. Yeah, so increasing your profitability. With increasing your prices, which is the amount that you take home after all your expenses are paid. 

So we really wanted to talk about this because we believe that it's important to know your value and get clear on whether your pricing reflects what you offer and what you would like to make with pricing and seeing your value in our offerings, in your offerings.

It can be a little bit of a struggle for a lot of people since we keep seeing this constant like make 10K months or I made this much money in like, you know, 30 days and this and that. So there's a lot of pressure, you know, that we experience primarily in social media and we believe that having alignment with this is very important.

So knowing your pricing and offerings are actually moving you towards your vision, making sure that you're pricing yourself. And positioning your services and products in a way that'll help you achieve your goals. So yeah, we're gonna talk about this and let's just dive in. What do you think Jo would be a very good first step to take on How we can go about increasing our prices in a way that feels thoughtful and purposeful, not just increasing for the sake of it or because somebody else is doing it.

Jo: Yeah, and I love this because the purpose of this episode, it's about pricing without selling your soul so that there is alignment. In that process. So I would say like the first thing to consider would be around defining your goal when it comes to pricing. So getting clear on what this amount or this next amount could really look like for you.

And asking yourself, why does this feel like the amount you actually wanna aim for? Like, what does this mean for you? And for where you are in your business, know that you get to determine. Whether this pricing is actually right for you. So going back to your point around not just for the sake of it or not, because you have pressure from social media to do so, and also seeing what that amount would be, defining that amount to be a fair exchange.

So typically you would hope that it would feel energetically fair and sustainable for you in your business. So… 

Donaji: That’s so important. Sustainable. 

Jo: Yeah. Sustainable. Right. And it should also feel a little bit scary and uncomfortable too because we know that increasing our pricing is always something that can bring up a lot of fear in people.

So leaning into that edge of your comfort zone. When it comes to that next pricing bracket is going to help you move into expanding your comfort zone as you move through your business and as your business evolves. And you should also take into consideration your value and your expertise and experience, especially if you've been working in your business for a while, you.

Your experience day to day, like every customer, every client that you serve will add further value into your offering. 

Donaji: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Jo: It goes the same with like intellectual property that you create along the way, whether that is a framework, a process, worksheets, all those kind of things that you can add to making your value or making your offering have a higher value than what it was before.

Donaji: When you say intellectual property, also along the same lines of the reputation and credibility that you've built. Yes. That you're building your growth, how you've grown up how people have gotten to to know you. So that's  a good reason or like just a lot of demand, you know?

Jo: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a really good one in terms of like how much you wanna be working throughout the year. The number of clients you wanna take on can really affect what that next amount could look like, and also the expenses maybe as your business grows. We know that. Expenses can also grow, and this can be a significant amount.

When you get to a point where your business is, is getting to that stage where things are more complicated than when you first started, you know, if you've got staff or if you've, you've got a consultant that you're bringing on. So thinking about that is really important. And one of the things that we often forget to do as business owners is paying yourself first, like ensuring that the next amount, yes, so important.

Definitely pays you first before you are putting that money into other areas of your business as well. So any extra on top of that should. Be channeled into your lifestyle or into your business, depending on how you would like, but paying yourself first is really important. 

Donaji: Getting clear on what this looks like requires a deep analysis on your lifestyle, on your budget, your personal and business budgets. Looking at those goals as to where do you wanna go so that you can determine how to get there. If you know exactly what that figure is of what your…you have to make in order to sustain yourself at the most basic level.

Mm-hmm. And then you have another figure where it's like, what would be a little bit more comfortable and then a little bit more comfortable. So you can start to get an idea of what you actually need to make for those specific stages of your lifestyle, and then work backwards. You know, and figure out how many clients I need to book, or what do I need to sell, how much money I need to make in order to sustain this specific lifestyle.

So it's really important to take a look at what you need in the most basic level. And then what is that next step that you want, like your lifestyle to look like, and how does your pricing support that?

Jo: Yeah, I love that because it really should be empowering you to be in your business and doing business from a place of wanting to serve.

So feeling like there is abundance in the pricing that you're setting yourself rather than feeling like you are not getting enough back or you're not able to meet your basic needs as well. So there should be some buoyancy to that as well, which is really awesome. And yeah, some of the watch outs that.

Come from just observing like how industry looks at pricing and the topic of pricing. Is that we spoke about this a little bit before, is that sometimes it can feel like you are selling your soul. So when your pricing is heavily dictated by what everyone else is charging, it can create a lot of pressure.

So that's just something to be aware of, that when you're setting your pricing, you are not being dictated by what other people are putting as their pricing. It's good to take that into consideration, but it shouldn't Yeah. Drive your decision making in the way where you don't have control, you don't feel you have control over what your pricing looks like.

Donaji: Yeah, because everyone’s lifestyles and goals are different, and also where they are in their business. I think this might be a little bit different though when it comes to the product-base. You know, I think we're primarily speaking in this way for personal brands and service-based businesses for product-base, I think that's a different story cuz you do have to look at what the market looks like.

Yes. And that kinda thing. So there's a lot more that goes into that. 

Jo: Yes, that's a really good point. And yeah, in my previous experience working on product-based brands in the supermarket, it is very much driven by what the retailer needs and wants. Yeah. However, I do think that your brand itself can have value as well.

So maybe the portfolio that you're looking at or you are looking at a potential product range that will help you break out of that existing category into a new category that a retailer currently have. Or you can be very novel about even the innovation around your product so that you can come into the market with pricing that you control to a certain extent because there isn't anything else out there which is similar. 

Donaji: Yeah. You, you're considering your place in how you're disrupting that industry or that space with what you offer and, and the quality and of the services and, and products that you sell.

Jo: Yeah. And I think the other watch out would be around like, Seeing whether it's coming from what you see on social media as well. So does it feel like you're selling involved when you are measuring your level of success against what everybody else is aiming for? So those five figure months, for example, sometimes we can feel.

Almost trapped into this mentality around we're only successful in business if we make X number of figures per month. Or if our revenue is at this particular level, so seven figures, for example. And it's really important just to, again, think about whether that is actually. The right path for you or whether your sense of value and worth is actually coming from your own decisions and your own desire for your lifestyle and your own ambitions in your business.

Donaji: I love this part so much. Looking at what you really desire and wanting to do that for yourself, it forces you to think of that. Why? Why am I doing this? What is, what am I getting out of this? Where am I trying to go? What am I trying to build? And I always love those questions because it takes you into this deeper exploration of.

Why you're doing what you're doing and the purpose behind everything. So I love that part. 

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. And the final watch out around setting your goal when it comes to your pricing is that. We need to be aware about whether there is anything mindset related that may be altering what you think you should be charging.

So especially if you identify as someone who might be a nurturer or someone who loves to give to others, you could be reducing your pricing to want to increase the value that you offer, where you should be actually increasing your pricing so that it matches the actual value that you have rather than what you're perceiving it to be.

It could also be coming from a place of lack or fear as well, and not seeing your own values. So just be aware that sometimes when it comes to pricing, we might be setting a price that's really based on what's happening with our mindset, and it's really good to understand or acknowledge our belief systems, maybe limiting beliefs in this particular case that could be contributing to those decisions too.

Donaji: That's such a great reminder for me. 

Jo: It's a good reminder for me as well.

Donaji: So we've dove into a little bit of mindset and the why behind why we would consider increasing our prices. 

How do we actually go about putting this into action? How do we get to increase our prices, whether it's $500 or $2,500?

How do we actually do this and what are some things to think about? 

Jo: So I think it's all great to define the goal of like, this is how much I wanna be charging, or this is how much my offering should be costing, not should cost, but it's a very different game when it comes to actually making those changes in our business to reflect the pricing that we want.

And some of it is around r eframing this around what it actually means for you. So do you actually only need to change your list price? Is that the price that needs to change? So is it the price at which you're offering your services or your products, or could you also look at increasing your profitability in your offering?

Donaji: Oh yes!

Yeah, and what we mean about this is can we reduce the expenses or can we reduce the time and the energy that we're putting into this offering? Because then essentially you are gonna get more back, even if your list price doesn't change. If you are increasing your profitability you are gonna get more back at the end of the day.

So there's two different sort of ways that you can actually increase the amount that you are getting at the end of the day that's going back into your bank account. 

Donaji: It reminds me of switching our thinking that profitability doesn't always equal, uh, dollar amount. Cause that could also equal time, which like you said, maybe it's not changing the list price, but it's increasing your profitability in how much time you're spending, so you get more free time, working less and still charging the same, for example.

Jo: Oh, I love that. Yes, and I, I think it goes back to your point around that aspect of lifestyle and how it fits back into your life and the type of life that you wanna lead as well.

So when it comes to firstly changing the list price part of it, I thought it would be fun for us to just share some of our own experiences around how we've done that in our business. 

So for me, I changed my list price over the years. And it's been a very gradual transition and it's really come from me wanting to reflect my experience and skills, the number of clients I've worked with, the results that I've been able to get for these clients, and I wanted to reflect this back into my offerings so that it's really a fair exchange in terms of the value that people get, and then also the time, money, and energy that is spent.

From my end in offering these services as well. So my initial price for a logo when I first started, and this is, so long ago. It was like $250. 

Donaji: Yeah, that was one too. 

Jo: And I remember thinking, and it's so interesting around the mindset piece. I was like, who's gonna pay $250 that’s so much money? Like I should be doing this for free. I remember actually thinking that. And the comfort zone that I had at that time was $250 and I was like, oh, this feels so scary, but I'm just gonna do it anyway because it feels scary.

I think my experience around pricing has been that even though you might feel like. At that stage, $250 is not a lot for a logo, very little for a logo. It's like cheap as chips. 

But my mindset at the time, this was like the first step that I had to take in order to get to where I am today. And it helped me break down and expand that comfort zone because I felt so scared of offering that at that price.

And so, I think it's a good reminder for everyone in terms of wherever you are at in your business that you'll get to that point. You might be at that point where it feels so scary to charge what you're charging. Yeah, sure. But it's an evolving process. It's step by step, and it doesn't mean that you're gonna be at this price forever.

It just means this is the thing that you need to work on to expand your comfort zone before you move to the next price on your way. To the type of lifestyle that you really wanna live.

Donaji: I love that because it is a little bit uncomfortable every time you increase it by a bit. You know, you're just sort of like pushing and pushing yourself and you have to reflect that, right?

So I think that challenges us to make sure that we are providing the value that we're. Asking for that price tag. For me, it's been a little bit of a rollercoaster because I've changed my services. A million times in trying to figure out what I wanted to offer, what I wanted to deliver, how I wanted to deliver it, um, how long it was gonna take at the beginning.

You know, it's just like a growth journey in, I don't know, in just growing your business. So you charge as little as you can and build. Right. I've had to really sit down every time and figure that out, like in terms of what my services are, what I really wanna offer. Everything I said before, the cool thing that's happened to me a couple of times is that my clients have actually told me like, you need to charge more for this, cause this is really valuable. 

So that was really reassuring and also validating. Knowing that people really did want to pay for that and that they're actually getting something really valuable. As valuable as I saw it, at least. 

Jo: Yes, yes. 

Donaji: Do you have any tips of how people can do this over time? 

Jo: Yeah, so I think like with changing the list price, it's around doing it step by step and making sure that it feels aligned really, as you're taking each of those smaller steps.

Going back to the example around feeling a little bit scared, playing at the edge of your comfort zone, I think that's a really good, intuitively, it's a push. It's a good, yeah, it's a good push to give yourself in a way, for setting that next price.

And then once you feel comfortable with that price, you are gonna get to a point where you see more value in that offering. After a while, it's almost like you settle into that discomfort of being at this new price point. When you're at that price point for a while, it will feel more comfortable and it will get to a point where you think, actually, I, I feel like I'm, I'm undercharging now.

And it's almost that intuitive nudge of like, there could be more here. That's probably the next point at which you would take the step to increase the price a little bit further and take that next step. 

Donaji: With every step up, you get out of your comfort zone and then you start getting comfortable where you are.

But you probably have enough experience within that period of time where you get better. Right? So then you start to feel more confident and then, you know, I mean, hopefully that does happen, and then you can feel comfortable to move up again. And sort of challenge yourself up to that next level. 

Jo: Yeah I love that because the experience is a big thing and I always notice that when I'm settling into a new price, cause it's always the first, maybe the first client at that. New price. I'm like, oh, I don't know if they're gonna like this, or is this enough? You know? I always have that doubt. I'm like, oh, maybe I should put more in.

And then after a while I'm like, oh no, this is great. This is exactly the right amount that it should be. And that's where it reaches that sort of comfort level. It also gives you that opportunity by taking it in those smaller steps rather than going from like an offering $700 for something all the way in increasing it in one go to $5,000.

That's a huge jump, and that may feel really, really scary. So by doing it step by step, it allows you to practice communicating that a new amount. So you are really again, building your confidence of time. 

It also allows you to see whether it's actually viable, like: Will people be continuously coming through and purchasing from you those products or services at that new price point? 

So you may, and this is a bit more of a testing the market and seeing like what. People are comfortable with and what your customer is comfortable with as well. But that's also really good to test it gradually as you are doing it step by step versus increasing it like tenfold the next time you change your price.

So, I think that's a, that's a huge thing. And then also the final point would be around like the mindset shift that you're actually experiencing as you are mm-hmm. Sinking into this new comfort zone and then mm-hmm challenging yourself to move to the next one. So it becomes a practice around playing on the edge of your comfort zone when it comes to your business, and that's a really wonderful ongoing practice because your business is always going to feel scary and it should always feel challenging in that way.

Donaji: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jo: I think the final point to add would be the transparency part, because if you are a service-based business or a product-based business, it's almost a more honest way of doing business when you can communicate a step by step change in your pricing over time, because that feels like a, a more fair, for me anyway, it feels like a, a more fair exchange because I.

Every business will increase their pricing over time. But if you are going from, you know, $700 to a $10,000 offer, or a $5,000 offer for your previous clients or your previous customers, like that might feel a little bit weird if you're doing that,  

Donaji: Yeah, they're gonna be so confused.Yeah. Unless you completely change your entire offers.

Jo: Exactly. But if it's the same service and the same offer, yeah. It feels a bit disingenuous to be 10 times in your, your pricing at that. Stage. So those would be like the main tips. Just do it gradually in a way that feels right for you and also scares you a little bit. 

Donaji: Yeah. I love that scare part. We're gonna talk a little bit about how we can manage the profitability to make sure that we're addressing that specific thing while we are increasing our prices. So we're actually making a profit and not just adding more value. 

So for example, when we think about increasing our prices, we're like, oh, we need to deliver more, add more services, add more process, add more time, add more of this.

We talked about profitability being either money or time. How can we increase our profitability while increasing our prices? We could also talk about increasing profitability without increasing our prices which we kind of touched on a little bit. But yeah, we wanna touch on this as well. Yeah.

Jo: So Donaji, um, I would love to know. Whave you done in your offerings like recently or like in the past where you've looked at profitability and you're like: okay, this needs to change, I need to make it work better. And what are some of those things that you've done? 

Donaji: Working with Pia, my coach and this group, she's really big on this.

And from the beginning when I first started working with her, she really pushed me and the people that we were coaching with to really look at this in a serious way. Like I look at this thing once a week at least. 

And it's a spreadsheet that we have where I can plug in my prices, my offers. And I'm looking at how much I've made and how much time it takes and all of that. So I can look at my entire business and see what I need to do and what I have left to do.

A lot of time I've spent looking at my services and how to make it more efficient. I've been talking about this for so many times in our podcast. But typically a branding project may take three to like six months or so. And I've been making it shorter and shorter and shorter. At the same time, increasing my prices, but I've also changed the way that I broken down my services and how I work with people. So it's been like a big re-shift. 

But, uh, in terms of profitability, definitely like cutting back on the time I spend on the project. It's kind of like looking at what the essentials are in the most valuable aspects of the project and process are to where my clients are still getting the value but I'm not really doing things I don't really need to be doing that are not adding anything to the project or to my client. 

So it's really come down to making that process shorter and getting rid of things that, in the process that I don't need to do. A lot of times. It's been cutting certain parts of the strategy process out or making them shorter or more efficient.

And then other times it's been like, how do I create a smaller style guide that cuts down on things that my client will probably want even look at or need, or like just how you go about certain things, whether it's like design wise or strategy wise, production. There's a lot of things in there that you can really look at, and it also takes a lot of commitment, right?

Because it's easy for us as designers to really say, oh, I'm just gonna spend like four hours doing this cuz it’s fun. Even like let's say eight hours. But do you really need to spend eight hours on that? Most of the time it's really not. You don't need as much as we take just setting a goal, okay, I'm gonna spend two hours on this, four hours on this, one hour on this, this and that, and like committing yourself to doing that.

That has been really helpful for me in just cutting a lot of that out. 

Profitability, I've been really looking at that in terms of time, specifically this past year and this year, reshifting how I work and how I bring the clients and the process of it all. Yeah. 

Jo: Gosh, there so many gems in there, having that, as you were saying with the like a tracking sheets that you are really plugged into what is actually happening financially in your business and where your time is going. That's huge. 

You know, and I think a lot of the time, it's one of the last things that we even think of as a, as a business owner is, is tracking all of those little data points because it feels like our time and energy is often.

Like derailed to other things that are seemingly more important, but this is so key as well. I love that you shared those little tweaks around looking at your business, like the process, the framework, where can you actually reduce the time? What are the systems that you can put in place? You could potentially, in some cases, and for some businesses it would mean like maybe hiring someone to do some of that work so that they Exactly, yeah.

And it might not feel like it’s profitable on the surface, like when you're like, oh, I have to pay someone, like how is that profitable? But remember that profitability is also time in your energy as well. Like can your energy be better spent somewhere else? Maybe it is around contracting out some of those easy to do tasks or repeated tasks.

It could be around automation, which you've also touched on as well. And it's been a big part of my business as well, like investing in, um, a good automated system for guiding my clients through the initial stage of the onboarding process, rather than me having to do it manually every time. It's mm-hmm.

Pretty much automated at this point, which is great. I would say those would be the things that have really increased the efficiency for my business so that it's running so I can guide my client through a process without putting more time into the manual, sort of admin sort of side of things. Those were the things that I pinpointed as the biggest areas of improvement.

As a tip, it would be around doing an analysis in your own business to see where in your process you can actually improve on. So reviewing things like expenses, cost of goods, your process, et cetera. 

Donaji: You actually, you hired a VA to help you, so they've been helping you. Yes. And you also hired a designer.

Jo: Yes, yes. So I hired, um, yeah, so I hired a VA and he, uh, also helps us with the podcast, and that's been really great because like all of those little things, like getting the podcast published, like we could do that, but then… 

Donaji: We were doing that. We were, we were editing, we were writing stuff. We were.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. Doing all of those things, but now like our energy is probably better used on actually creating the content for the episode. And then I have my junior designer who helps out with some of the client project files and things like that. But I have to be honest, I still need to get much better at the overall process. Around SOPs and like helping delegate.

Donaji: The delegation part. 

Jo: Yeah, delegation. That's probably like my weakness doing an analysis of my business. The area of greatest improvement that will improve efficiency will be, I've used improve a lot, but will be improving my my SOPs process and how I delegate.

Donaji: Those are big, uh, time suckers, you know, especially with the podcast. I think we've done a really good job at encapsulating the amount of work that needs to be done in one, really in two hours. Right? Yeah. Because we do most of the work when we chat and record. So I think that's another way of thinking about it.

You know, like if you had a project or something, whatever your service is. You know, whether it's like you're sitting down thinking about what to post for social media, you have to write about it. You have to create a graphic for it. You have to search for hashtags. You have to put it together and schedule the posts like.

All the time spent that you have to do that. Imagine if you had somebody else do it in like four hours a week and you just pay this person four hours a week, which would take you maybe even longer. Yeah, maybe they can do more. So imagine the hours that you can save every week. 

So it's not necessarily money cuz you're paying them, but at the same time you are gaining time to make more money in the ways that you can do better. 

Jo: Yeah. Outsourcing is huge. Collaborating with others, which would be one of the things yeah. That we did for this podcast was we could be both like running individual podcasts, but it's been so much easier on our time to collaborate and do it.

Together cuz we had similar goals with the podcast. So how to think about in your business. Is there other things, other people that you could collaborate with that could help you free up some of that time on shared projects? 

Donaji: I think we spend a lot of time brainstorming on our own. So I think you could be more efficient if you had like a business partner or somebody that you can, you look up to or that has a good brain about, you know, for strategy and brainstorm with this person and just knock it down and like, knock it out in like an hour.

You know, imagine if you're like trying to find a title for something or trying to write or figuring out an idea for a new service or something like that, where you've been thinking about it for like days and maybe just getting on a call with somebody that can help you for one hour. Could be super efficient.

Jo: Oh, that’s so true. I love that one. And then also I love what you were saying before around like, don't just shove more things into an offering. Like it's not about adding more deliverables, 

Donaji: We’ve all done it. 

Jo: Yeah. It's about streamlining and almost working out where people, if you've got a service-based business, it's working out where people have the biggest aha moments and kind of like intensifying those parts of the process. Rather than the sleepy moments where people are like, oh, okay, this is good to know, but not necessary and unimportant. Those are the things that, that you might wanna take out because it's not adding value.

It's not adding perceived value for your customer or your client. And so like, I think just to finish off, for product-based businesses, it might be around ordering like a bigger volume and reducing the amount of product offerings that you have so that you can be really streamlined on developing a very strong marketing plan with a smaller product range that performs really well.

So often we wanna as product-based business owners, there's the tendency to add more new products to the range, like different flavors, different colors, different varieties, different ingredients, but all of that means that you are sourcing extra material, you're sourcing new ingredients, you're sourcing all this other stuff, new processes, pricing it differently, packaging, all of those things go up if you've got more products in your product range.

So it's always very a good idea at the end of every six months or every quarter to review your business to see what is selling really well, hun, anchor down on those ones so that it increases your efficiency as a business as well. 

Donaji: Oh, I love those quarterly reviews. So that's really good for anyone really.

So to summarize, I guess some of the main takeaways we mentioned, just getting clear on what that pricing should look like for you, for where you are in your business, for your own skills and expertise. 

Is it fair to you and your customers? Does it feel balanced? Does it reflect your value? Does it reflect the skills that you have, your expertise and experience up to this point?

And then is it supporting your lifestyle? Is it covering your expenses? Are you be able to pay yourself?

And then just check on how you feel about it. Is it challenging you a little bit or do you feel like resentful because you're not getting paid enough and you're working a ton and you're burnt out and you don't have money? Think about that. 

So making sure that you're actually making a profit, even if it's small. Because if you're starting out, perhaps you're not making a profit, which is okay. I think that's pretty expected and normal. But as you're growing, like you should start to making a profit and start growing. I'm not gonna say that every business surpasses the last year but that's a different conversation, but just making sure that at least you can pay your expenses and sustain yourself at the most basic level, an important thing is to think of profit as time and not just money. 

So are you able to not get burned out and. Allow yourself the weekend at least. Are you able to take time off if you're been in business for a little while? Can you schedule those in your, your calendar? 

Are you able to. I don't know. Treat yourself once in a while and take care of your mind and health and all of that. 

So those are some takeaways. Anything to add, Jo? 

Jo: Yeah. The main game changing thought for me was around thinking of profit as more than just money is time and energy and like how much you're investing in yourself into the process.

Thank you so much everybody for listening and tuning in to another episode of the Branch Journey podcast. 

If you have any comments, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the episodes. Or if you have an idea for a future episode, please get in touch with us. We're on the branch journey over on Instagram, so you can always reach us there.

And yeah, we would love to hear from you as well in terms of how you're enjoying your podcast episodes. Um, it's always such a pleasure to see the little post that you send our way around, when you're listening to an episode, it's so lovely to see. So thank you so much and we'll see you guys next time.

See ya.