We’re excited to have our first podcast guest! Our first guest is our friend and fellow designer and strategist Laneen Wells, owner of Sbltn Studio, a design and discussion studio focused on intersectionality, accessibility, and diversity through inclusive practices and advocacy.

We brought Laneen over to chat about what it’s like to own and manage a design studio and space that thoughtfully, boldly, and intentionally fosters and advocates inclusivity and accessibility. We learned about how she embraces being a multipotentialite yet still having a focused business and some easy ways you can start implementing practices to be a more accessible business owner and entrepreneur.

Check out Laneen at @sublationstudio and sign up for her substack to learn more about intersectionality, accessibility, and diversity in a creative context through through inclusive practices and advocacy.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Donaji: All right, so today we are super excited to have Laneen as our first ever podcast guest. We're a little bit nervous. We're a little bit excited. You're a perfect guest because of your energy and also because we know you a little bit. So, um, and you're in our community of branding people. We're so excited to, um, get to know you and hear your story.

Jo: I'm super excited. We were just talking about some of the topics that we wanted to delve into today. Um, and they're so good and so juicy. So we can't wait to get into it with you.

Donaji: Yes, thank you for being here. So Laneen is a creative strategist and brand designer, and she is the founder and owner of Sublation Studio, where she focuses on intersectionality, accessibility, and diversity through inclusive practices and advocacy. That's kind of a mouthful.

Laneen: It is. I'm working on it.

Donaji: No, I love It just gives us more questions to ask.

I think it's perfect. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what Sublation Studio is about? Also where that name comes from? I know where it comes from, but I want you to kind of walk us through your decision into naming it that way, where that comes from and yeah.

Laneen: Mostly me being a nerd, really, to be honest. Like, that's really where it comes from. Uh, well, the actual word itself, sublation, is like, there's a German philosopher, and like, that's his whole thing. Um, and it's this, basically, the concept of, like, integrating things without eliminating things. So, it's how can you combine parts of something to make a whole thing that's way more awesome than those little parts fit in by themselves.

And that was just something that. Jumped out at me and it was a word buried way in my head, like way, way, way back. So it didn't actually arise until I was like thinking about what am I gonna my little studio on something cute? I wanted to be my name. And so I was like, you know, mashing words together.

gather and I was trying all kinds of things and then I was starting to go through like my philosophy terms and words and stuff and that one's just kind of like you know when something just feels right I'm like that that one's it you know like it just I don't know it just hit both for the concept and for the word it just felt uh really great I was kind of worried that people would like mess it up or you know they would get it confused with another word but I'm just willing to like Tell them, like, here's how you say it, and this is what it means.

Um, and it really represents me, I think, because of how I work and how I operate. I'm all about, like, mashing things together, or blending things, or taking opposites and putting them together. You know, as someone with, like, an intersectional identity of being Black, bicultural, hard of hearing, a woman, my life is just always filtered through this lens of, like, mashing things up and remixing anyway.

So, it was perfect.

Donaji: Did that also come to be around what you do and also like your intersectionalities? Like, did you think about how, um, that plays also on what you're offering and the kind of services that you offer or even the kind of people that you work with?

Laneen: Yeah, I don't think... I don't think initially it happened. I don't think it was deliberate. I should say I don't think I did it consciously. Um, I think because like before DEI was a buzzword, I think I was just always inherently valued diversity. I value just being fair to other people. So it was almost like automatic for me, um, with how I interact with people, how I, you know, show up to my work, the type of clients that I work with, that kind of thing.

Um, yeah. Disability or just like the lenses that I see through and that I live through and so it's a part of me and you know, like words like intersectionality. I didn't even know those existed until I started like poking around and like the social impact spaces and like the justice circles and seeing what words were being put to concept that I already knew but couldn't put into words, um, myself.

Um, and so once I saw like those kind of terms, I started to wonder, I'm like, well, is any of that mixing with design? Like, who else is mixing these things? I'm sure someone is doing it. I can't be the first, you know? And that kind of led me down the rabbit hole of inclusion and diversity in design. What does that look like?

Um, and as someone who's hard of hearing, it's just always, You know, if I'm having meetings, I'm like, Hey, can you guys put on captions? And you know, if we're in a conference room in person and they put that stupid speakerphone thing in the middle of the big table It just sounds like blah blah blah to me and i'm like i'm so lost right now So like someone else some other creatives or designers have to be having these kind of problems as well and how can I help solve those maybe for uh some of my clients?

And so it just it really helped me kind of also figure out who to work with, um, business wise, uh, that was like huge. Cause it kind of gave me clarity on the types of people I want to work with, both in terms of like their initiatives, but also their causes, um, and their values, like making sure that we're aligned.

And that was just, it was really awesome.

Jo: And in terms of like choosing who you work with and like the values that you share, how do you actually like encourage other people to also cultivate diversity, but also like focus on having that target audience. So in terms of like integration without elimination, how can you kind of. integrate, but also like speak to a particular target audience.

Laneen: That's tricky. Um, that is a great question. It's tricky. I think, well, I think when people consider diversity in marketing, they assume like you have to cast this wide net and you have to catch all the fish. And I don't think you can do that. Like, And you shouldn't when you have a business, you should have a target audience.

You have an ideal customer. It's just a smart business move. Um, but for me, where that integration of like diversity with marketing and stuff comes in is just thinking about what are you opening their minds to, you know? Um, so that's where you can cultivate diversity. So let's say, for example, you might work with just yoga practitioners.

You can discuss with them like, okay, what is the diversity of representation look like in your photography? Um, what's the accessibility for your Physical space or online classes, you know, is there a lack of language in your marketing? So instead of framing things as like this or that, like just kind of look in the grays, look in the in betweens and kind of dig around.

So that's how I approach it.

Jo: This is wonderful. It's, it's, it's so like impactful. And I think it's something that every business owner should be thinking about, but I love what you were saying around that aspect of being a generalist in your business as well. And then bringing that back in with diversity, um, with integration. I guess my question is like, as a generalist, how can you ensure that when you're working with a client, they're looking at all of those steps.

Cause I'm assuming that that's a big part of your process is getting this like big sort of viewpoint of how their business is working and pinpointing like all those specs where they can kind of tweak and improve their accessibility and the diversity for other people.

Laneen: Yeah, I, I kind of like gently nudge them and give them gentle reminders because as a journalist, and one thing that I love about being a generalist, I guess, in the sense is that I love knowing the whole kind of bird's eye view of something. I love knowing the whole pipeline from like conception to like actual execution.

And so I'm always just kind of zoomed out and try to stay out of the weeds. So as we're going through things through, let's say a branding project, I kind of know what stages or what phases to be like, okay, now we're going to talk about this thing about diversity. Now we're gonna talk about this part of accessibility instead of just like dumping it.

All in the beginning or, or at the end, um, because I don't think that accessibility should be like a checklist item at the end. I don't think it's a one and done thing. It really is an ongoing practice. It really is something that you have to like, keep going. Um, so I just try to keep that zoomed out lens and, you know, kind of chime in and, and nudge them every now and again, like, Oh, Hey, remind, remember this?

Remember that one thing we learned, or have you considered this, uh, just to kind of keep them on track, quote unquote, so to speak.

Donaji: And I'm assuming that because you're already putting yourself in that position of being or integrating all these concepts into your work, that obviously you're going to attract the people that really value and care about those things. Is there any instance where you've had to? Or that they weren't aware of that.

And they were either hesitant to not implementing those things or just not really being open to those things. Cause I, to me, that would be strange to hire somebody who's an expert at this stuff. And then they talked to me about it and then they're kind of closed off on that. So have you had those problems before?

I guess I should call them. I don't know. Experiences, yeah. Challenges.

Laneen: for growth. Yeah, no, I definitely had them. I think, um, in the earlier stages, but when I really didn't find my footing with my business and I was still doing like production jobs and things through agencies and studios, there wasn't space for me to be like, Oh, by the way, accessibility, like we don't care.

Here's the project, turn out that PowerPoint, do this production work, like just, you know, get it done. So there was like no discussion in those kinds of spaces. Um, once I was able to actually take on my own clients. There was, there is still to this day some pushback sometimes, um, and that could just be because there's higher ups that don't understand the importance of, of it.

Um, there might be ones just because they don't prioritize it, you know what I mean? They, they might see like, well, how's that going to help our bottom line? What's the return on investment? You know, all the accessibility is a cost. It's not going to help us. So there are definitely times where I have to like make a counter argument for like, why this is important.

And then sometimes there's people that genuinely do care and want to do it, but maybe they just don't have the bandwidth. They don't have the team. They don't have the resources, you know, and they care and they just need to figure out what small steps they can take to kind of start the whole journey. So there's, I get everything from like, yes, we're a 100 percent all in, to, well, we really don't want to do this, but you know, our DEI consultant said we had to, so, and I'm just like, oh man. So it runs a range of gamuts and you can't always like vet out the people that are, you know, going to turn out less than ideal.

Donaji: Yeah. So who would be... Actually, I'm gonna go back a little, because I'm curious what your background is and how you started as a designer, because you said you were doing production work beforehand, so where did your journey start, career wise, and then how did you transition, or how did you become a designer with this focus?

Laneen: I would love to say it was like a straight line. It was not, it was like spirals and dips. Um, I mean, I, I've always been like into art and music, uh, video games, like anything that's kind of like creative expression or, or, you know. self expression. Um, and so I kind of started to wonder, like, is it possible to get a job in that kind of stuff?

Um, I am horrible at traditional art. Like, I can't draw stick figures. I can't paint. I can't sculpt. I can't do anything. But if you give me a computer, I'm like, boom, I can bring that vision to life in some way. Um, and then that's just when I think people had mentioned, like, graphic design and, you know, these kinds of things.

Um, I actually started off in visual effects and animation because I was like, I want to blow stuff up and I want to, like, do all these really cool things. I was like, Yes. Uh, but then I realized the hours that they worked and the just grueling schedule. And I was like, just kidding. Not for me. Yeah. Um, so almost, I was practically done with that visual effects degree actually.

And then like the year before I graduated, I was like, what's going on with graphic design? And that sounds cool. So I like hard pivoted in my last year, scrambled to get all those classes together. Um, and because, you know, costing university in the United States is ridiculous. So I was like, if I'm going to be enrolled, I'm going to make it worth it.

So it's also double majoring in philosophy at the time. And I think 

that's also, yeah, don't, don't do it. Kids, please don't, I don't know why I did that to myself. It was a spicy journey. Um, but I think that's when all the blending really started the philosophy and the art and all that stuff together. Um, and then I did everything, you know, that most designers do when you graduate, you're just.

You know, scraping together freelance jobs, you're at agencies, you're at studios, you're seeing if, you know, your mom's opening her bakery, if she needs a logo, like you're just doing whatever you can to get your foot in the door. Uh, and then I was finally in house for about six years at a place and I was creatively like not inspired anymore at all.

And, uh, the work environment was, less than healthy, dare I say. Uh, so I knew I had to bail at that point. I was like, this is not it. Um, you know, luckily freelancing, um, being independent contractor and all those kinds of things were kind of becoming more mainstream, I guess, and seen as a more viable career path.

You know, it wasn't just the nine to five, you know, stay there for 50 years and retire with the watch. There was a new, like, creative paths. Um, so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to figure out this. Work for yourself thing. I got legit, so to speak, quote unquote, got the LLC, figured out quarterly taxes and all that, you know, I was like, all right, I'm,

Jo: All fun stuff.

Yeah. I was like, I'm somebody now. Um, and then I just kind of hit the, hit the ground running with trying to tap into like who I knew, you know, contacts of former jobs, other designer friends, um, anyone I knew that had a side hustle that might need some like visual identity or anything. Um, and then from there just tried to build the client base.

Jo: And in terms of like working out that you were, well, I guess we all know deep down inside that we're like multi potentialites. Like if we are, if we are one, we know that we've got heaps of different interests. Um, I really resonate with how you were saying, like in your final year, you, you, you studied all the things.

Um, I also did a similar thing as well. So it's kind of. Baked into our DNA in a sense. Um, and so can you take us through how being a multi potential multi potential or a generalist, um, how that experience has been in terms of setting up a business when everyone is saying you've got a niche down and you've got to like really hone in and be very specific,

Donaji: Yeah. I'm actually, I'm going to piggyback off of that question because I, I was curious about that too, because I didn't know if you have a choice, whether to bring all of your interests into your business or not. Right. And so I'm curious to know, Same as what Joe asked, but also, like, do you bring all of the interest into this or you just consider yourself a generalist for specifically your, your business or a multi creative just in general in life?

And that doesn't mean, um, you bring all the interest into your business, if that makes any sense.

Laneen: So good. Oh my gosh. I'm just like all the things, all the things. Yes. Um, well, I think that like those terms in general, like generalist, um, multi potential, there's a multi hyphenate, multi disciplinary, Swiss army knife, all those things. And at least when I was going through like formal education, it was always Preach you to niche down, do not be a journalist.

That's going to be like the death of your business. No one's going to know what you do. They're going to think that you're just mediocre at a bunch of things like, you know, and maybe part of my rubble side is like, screw you. I'm going to do it anyways and be successful. Um, but I think that a lot of larger part of me would just know that I would be bored.

Like if I just had to do just like one type of design or one type of like service. I would be like, nah, this is not it for me. I would just give up. So, um, in that sense, I just, I have to be, and also I don't know any other way not to be like, it just, all that stuff just comes flowing through anyways. Like I can't, I can't prevent it.

You know, I can't like turn off, I can't put on like horse blinders or anything, and I can't turn those things off. Um, so like I'm always, There's always tabs, like open tabs, like a browser in the back of my head, I have like 50 chrome tabs in my head at all times. Oh, it's awesome.

But also it gets a little noisy. And I'm like, shshsh, be quiet. Not right now. You know, um, But, you know, if I, if I'm designing, doing like a brand project and one of those tabs might be, okay, there's a shape from string theory, like this weird, you know, parallel universe shape, Calabi Yau or something. I'm like, Oh, this is really cool.

I can bring this in. Or I watched that documentary on like, you know, how snowboards are made or NASA's new little Rover. And I'm like, Oh, that would be a cool shape or whatever. Like, so there's no way for me to actually like flip that switch to turn it off. Even if I tried, um, you know, there was new, there'll be like new features, uh, accessibility features and video games and I'm like, Oh, that's interesting.

I wonder if any of that would be, you know, applicable to someone who's doing presentations or decks or whatever else. So it's going to come through no matter what. So I'm like, I might as well embrace it and I might as well leverage it and use it anyways.

Donaji: Yeah, it's like you can't help it because it's it's just naturally there. So you just have to go with it.

Laneen: Yeah, and maybe later down the road I'll niche down maybe I'll get like super obsessed with one thing and I was like, I just want to be a type designer, and I'll just like focus on that but even then I don't know how long that would last.

Donaji: But in a way, you're you're kind of are niching down and when you're focusing on like a very specific thing, you know, even though it's like three different things or five different things, you're still like creating some sort of boundary around like what you bring in the branding, you know, um, I guess, world or to the branding world and also who, who you work with, like you attract a certain type of audience and customer or client.

And I feel like that already is sort of niching down, even though perhaps it may not look that way because you have all these different interests or even like I'm thinking to, um, sort of like you have all these, um, interests and passions. On the internal side, but externally as a business, it doesn't feel that way.

So like what you bring to the table is so much richer than just like, my interest is in design and I just focus on marketing. I don't know why I'm talking like a robot, you know, well, or that

Laneen: I love that you called it like boundary because I feel like it's a bubble of like creative chaos so like now I'm just gonna reframe it.

Donaji: Or that, or that.

So I was wondering too, how has you, um, sort of narrowed down the people that you want to work with? Do you work with organizations? Do you work with one on one customers? Like what are the, who, who do you, who's your customer? Who's your primary client?

Laneen: Yeah, I think. I mean, it's easier for me to think about who I don't want to work with and who I do. I kind of like leave that door open a little bit. Um, in the sense that I, I'm, I'm just really, I'm kind of like industry agnostic, so to speak. Like whatever it is that you do, that's cool. It's more about mindset.

Like I want people that are like, they're not going to shy away from. The hard work and like the tough conversations that comes with integrating DEI and accessibility with their stuff. I want people willing to like get in and get messy and be like, we're going to, it's going to be awkward at times. And, you know, someone might say something, you know, harmful or something, we're gonna have to mitigate that and work through that.

But like, that's part of this process. So I want people. We're willing to do that. Um, and so some of them might be in social impact fields directly, you know, like maybe, um, they run like, uh, a shelter for victims of domestic violence, or it might be someone that's just socially conscious or socially curious, you know, they're just kind of figuring out, well, how can I put more inclusive practices in my business?

You know? So they might not be like on the forefront, so to speak of, of a, of a movement of some sort, but they still have that in their head and they're just wondering how to work that in. Um, and it might just be, you know, someone who's like. Going to confront their family's racist remarks made a dinner or something.

You know what I mean? Like it's just people that just have that consciously aware mindset. Um, and then I think also I kind of I kind of exclude people that are like leaning into the culture fit mentality. I'm just, I'm not here for that. I find that that word, like that phrase culture fit is usually, it's usually either used to abuse power or it's like tech bro, Silicon Valley type companies.

I'm like, I'm not here for that. So like anytime those. Things start being thrown around and, you know, clients coming to me and they're pitching. They're like, yeah, we're looking for someone who's a culture fit. I'm like, peace out. Like, no way. Like if I ever ran a studio, I, not for me, not at all. If I ever ran a studio, I think I will look more for people that are like cultured than like a culture fit.

Like just bring yourself, you know, I want to create a space. Hopefully if I ever ran a studio that people would feel brave enough to do that. And it's like a humane enough environment that people can do that. Um. And that they can show up and they can bring their passions too. So like, if they like anime, if they like, you know, carving, if they like, you know, learning about how waters filters work, whatever, like bring that dude.That's cool.

Donaji: I love how you threw in water filtering and carving and anime. It's so different.

Laneen: Tabs. The tabs are open in my brain.

Donaji: We're hearing the tabs.

Jo: I love it.

Donaji: How did you learn about working with organizations? Because there's such a big difference between working with one or two people versus working with a team and the skills that you need to manage a project like that are so different. And also it can be very challenging when you have Several decision makers or people that you have to listen to and organize ideas around when everybody's like throwing their own opinions.

Yeah, I'm curious to see how you, how you built those skills. Yeah.

Laneen: I am still building them. I am still learning to be honest. Like that is a huge shift from going from working with one entrepreneur and their brand and they're the main person you talk to to like now there's a team of five and there's like a, you know, a point of contact or like a team lead or this person is going to be the liaison between you and so and so.

Donaji: Cause it's only you, right? Like you don't have a team.

Laneen: No, I wish. I mean, designers, illustrators, if y'all are looking, come talk to me.

Donaji: It's the same for me. And like I asked this because I, it's, it is a challenge for me and it's something that I'm really working on more this year, working with organizations that more than before. And so I think at first it can be very intimidating because you have to, it's the, the amount of energy that it takes to listen to several people and have.

You know, thoughtful responses or thoughtful questions can be challenging when you're the only one there, you know, so it's like five against one.

Laneen: You got to learn to pick your battles. Sometimes I'm just like, I'll advocate for one or two things, but then I'm like, all right, this is just not the hill that I'm going to die on. Like, no, I'm just going to, you know, pivot away from that, but I just try to manage expectations and I just try to be as transparent as possible.

You know, whether that's about simple things like, you know, deadlines and how files are going to be delivered, you know, like the nitty gritty stuff, or if it's like transparency in terms of like, these are the type of. topics we're going to talk about and we're going to discuss and you're going to have to be prepared and your whole team should be there.

Like, I don't, I don't want just one or two people. And then you guys are going to report back. Like, no, today we're talking about accessible practices. Everyone's going to show up and learn and do that. So I'm still navigating that way. Cause there is still politics to play and, you know, messenger and all that stuff.

But I think as long as you are transparent, you kind of try to manage those expectations. You can, you can get through.

Donaji: Yeah, I think it's the, I think the boundaries setting those boundaries from like the super very beginning with the people that meet with you in that moment, because There's so many things that can change and like, just make the project so much more longer and more difficult. So it's interesting. 

Jo: Make it really complex, right? Like I think even like communication. Um, and I I've been learning this the hard way, not having like a structure for like a meeting where. Everyone just, like, goes, like, drives off, shows up, drives off to the desert in, like, their own car, and they're, like, on their own thing, um, and then you're trying to, like, piece together what everyone's saying, but it's, like, everybody's got very different opinions that you can't really, I find it very difficult to take all of those things in and try to, like, create a design solution for that if there's no level of priority or structure beforehand.

So I love what you were saying just in terms of, um, setting those expectations beforehand. I think that's something that I need to get so much better at in terms of working with like, look at these, it's a challenge. 

Laneen: It's a challenge, especially when there's all those like creative opinion. You know, and you try not to take it personal as a creator, you know what I mean, of like why they're saying no to certain things, but also I try to just keep them on track of like, listen, remember guys, this was our business goal we decided on, this was our strategy goal, like I always try to go back to strategy, and I'm like, Tim doesn't like blue, and Katie doesn't like stripes, like none of that has to do with the fact that we were trying to bring in more customers, or we were trying to like bring it.

Brand awareness, whatever. So I try to like use that as like my cop out, so to speak. Like, see, we already agreed on this other thing. And my idea fits that. Um, but sometimes my idea doesn't and that's okay. But I just try to like, bring it back to that neutral ground of like, what's the goal in mind? Uh, and not so like subjective in terms of the feedback, but it can still be hard wrangling people together.

Donaji: Yeah, I mean, but also that's the beauty of strategy, right? It's like it doesn't, it's not, we can detach ourselves and not have it be personal and also give them that opportunity to detach themselves and be open to a different, uh, take perspective or idea that, you know, now it's about. The goals in the business not about you, you know, so it's it's that has been like probably one of the most valuable lessons I've learned as a designer over the years is just detaching yourself from that outcome and teaching clients to do that and I think it's It's really fulfilling, I think, for me to teach people to do that in the branding process because everybody, especially from a personal brand or a small business, like everybody comes with this in mind and it's like, well, let me tell you how this works and how much more meaningful it can be if we think of it in a different way.

Laneen: Definitely.

Donaji: Let's dive into accessibility. 

Jo: Oh no!

Donaji: I know this is probably like another episode on its own.

Laneen: Can be. Yes.

Donaji: But my, uh, my main question is like, okay, we all know, no, I shouldn't assume accessibility is, uh, something that a lot, particularly I think designers struggle with because, and I remember I was in a workshop that you did like a couple of years ago, um, uh, talking about how. You know, it doesn't mean that we're restricted or we should feel restricted, um, with our creativity or anything like that, um, but I think we still feel that way.

And I think it can feel overwhelming because there are so many things to take into consideration as you're designing, um, not only colors and fonts, but also other things, the way that they function on the website. And there, there is a lot to really, to, to think and consider. How would you, or what would be the easiest thing to do to put some sort of system in place?

As a designer to help you not just being aware of this thing, but also implementing it in a way that feels like an ongoing practice. Like you can replicate this system over and over.

Laneen: Ooh, that is tricky, but possible.

Donaji: Okay.

Jo: Um, for me, I tend to... I mean, I guess because I, I'm far from being an accessibility expert. There are some people that have like 50 certifications. They're like deep in it. Like they can, you know, give you all the buzz. Um, but I know a little bit about something about everything, you know, like all the different like formats of it.

And so for me, I just kind of have like these buckets. So I'm like, okay, during design, what are some things when I'm working with audio or visual audio or video, what are some things, um, if it's, you know, um, Like a document or something else like that. So I have these like buckets of where it applies and how, and then I will have like a little micro list inside.

So like you mentioned with design, there's things like color contrast or fonts, um, you know, with audio video, there's always captioning, podcasts, there's transcripts, social media, capitalizing your hashtag. So like I try to keep these buckets in mind and then like little bullet points underneath. So if I am gonna have to design for like those mediums or things, I'm like, okay, let me address that.

Donaji: That's, I love that. I feel like that in my mind feels so much more easy to, to grasp rather than like things. So almost looking at every asset. And every part of the creative as like, its own checklist.

Laneen: And the more you do it, the more it just becomes like secondhand nature. Like, you know what I mean? You, you're not going to put out a video without thinking, okay, I need captions. You're not going to do brand colors without thinking, Oh, let me run it through the color contrast tester. So those things just kind of become a habit, but every now and again, you might forget, or there's the cool thing about digital accessibility is that there's always new practices and like things are evolving and tools are changing or improving.

So it's really cool to kind of like. Keep those buckets in mind. And, um, for example, even the color testing right now, um, WCAG is like the thing that makes all the rules and they're coming out with a new set of rules that are like way more accurate for color testing. So, you know, you might have a new tool that tests so much better than the old tool did.

And so those are things that, you know, if, as long as you have those buckets in mind, then you'll just kind of like. Keep it running in the back of your head as you do things. And then as things improve, you're like, Oh, let me try this new thing. And it'll become integrated into your practice fully that way.

Jo: And what about for business owners who might not have like a design background? Do they have, do you like recommend like different buckets that they can kind of, um, almost, or it sounds like they can audit their business as a, like a first step of the process. Like, what would that first step be like for a potential client that's coming to you?

Laneen: Yeah. I think audits tend to scare people to be honest. They hear audit and they're like, Oh no, legal troubles. Like, Oh no. Or like audit sounds so expansive and so like heavy. Um, and there are ways that as a small business owner, you can audit your business, you know, like. To look at your practices, but, um, I think more of the first step is really just like being aware of digital accessibility, what it is, why it matters, who it helps.

So it doesn't feel as daunting as like this big thing you have to do, I have to make my business accessible, like that sounds heavy, sounds expensive, it sounds like, you know what I mean, so much, but just like step back and be like, Well, what is digital accessibility? And once you understand that, then you can see those really small steps that you can take even without a team, you know?

Um, so like captioning videos, while people think it sounds really scary because they're like, oh my God, tech, there's so many apps now that do it. Or, you know, so many social media features already built in, like it's so super easy now. So I think that once people can just step back and. Understand what digital accessibility is.

That kind of relieves them a little bit and then they can see, okay, what tools are there to help me before I get into like the big fancy, you know, audits and all that, bring it in consultants and that stuff gets out of control real quick, sometimes.

Donaji: Do you think that apps do a good job of doing this? It feels like it does, but I don't, I don't know.

Laneen: It depends. I think they're a great place to start. Don't get me wrong. Like I think that something…

Donaji: Like Instagram for example.

Laneen: I think, I mean, they were late. There's a lot of apps that are so late to basic accessibility. It's just like, like teachable and all these platforms that host courses. Lots of people upload videos and many of them are just now getting auto transcriptions, auto captions for the videos, like before you'd have to put the captions in your videos and then upload it into the platform.

So I'm a little annoyed that they're late to the curve, but better late than never, hoorah, get on them. Um, like, okay, that's cool. I'll take the crumbs, but I want the whole cupcake. Like, let's go. 

But there are some apps that I think the one thing I caution about it is that a lot of people will rely on the tool too much.

So like they'll run, you know, have a transcript for their podcast and I'm like, great, it's automated and they'll post it without even reading it. And I'm like, if you take a look at that, that automated one is not as accurate as you think it is.

Donaji: I know this first, because thanks to you, I feel like I needed to be accountable and so we started doing our transcripts in the last few episodes and oh my god, that is time consuming. But there are so many errors, so I definitely, like, yeah, it's, it's definitely a must. Yeah.

Laneen: Yeah. So use the tools as a starting point, but don't rely on them too heavily. Cause some of these things do require manual, you know, overlook like the captions and transcripts and even color testing the rules, sometimes my flag of color is passing. But when you look at it, you're like nothing about this passes.

Like I'm looking at it with my eyes. It's looking at me. I'm looking at it. It doesn't pass. So like, you just gotta be careful. Manual and automation. Both of those things can be your friend.

Donaji: Yeah, that makes sense.

Laneen: It's a lot.

Donaji: No, it's a lot, but it's great. I think there's just so much to... If you really think about it into pieces, like, I remember telling you, like, my goal is to get us to start doing transcripts by, you know, this date. And if you think of it like that in phases, it was like, okay, I'm going to integrate one practice per quarter. and something that's already part and baked into your process. So it might not feel as overwhelming. And also understanding like a lot of this stuff that if you've never learned about it takes time to learn and to to not master, but you know to get it to a place where it feels easy to do and sort of giving yourself that time to like get to know the apps, get to know the platform, understand like what works best for you to do this thing.

You know, like what gives me the better captions or, you know, the best transcript that's more accurate and things like that. And I'm sort of, um, automating your processes and stuff that, um, to make your life easier, but still accomplish that goal of being mindful of. digital accessibility. Um, so like not take it, I'm speaking to myself, like not take it on, not take it on all at once.

Um, just like set phases or, um, you know…

Laneen: Phases is a great way to look at it. Yeah, no, I think that's honestly the best way. I kind of think of like little batches, like look at the low hanging fruit, you know, don't try to hire the big time consultant and do the fancy audits right away. Don't try to fix everything out at once. Um, again, digital accessibility isn't one and done.

It's not a checklist. It's not like you're going to do that one thing and be like, Oh, I'm accessible and then walk away. It is an ongoing practice and it is a journey. So you have to pace yourself and you have to be realistic. Um, you know, can you learn that app? Um, or that program. Great. You know, can you just run your website through an accessibility tester?

Even if you're not going to fix it, just know what buggy things are happening. And just, you know, think about like, what can you realistically maintain that? What can be sustainable for you energetically? Um, what can you afford as a small business owner? You know, maybe outsourcing captions is not affordable for you right now and you're just gonna have to put in the hour or two on the weekend to to do it. 

Um, I have a great example. I think of like, I have a friend and a colleague of mine. They released an online course and they were very upfront, um, about the fact that they didn't have captions right away.

They were like, I'm gonna have them up in a, you know, a few months, a few weeks from now. I'm working on it. I know that I need them, but like, they're not here right away. And I think that many entrepreneurs are bootstrapping their business when they start, you know, they're, they don't have the massive capital that the big companies have to pay for services, you know, so when your finances are tight, when your time is tight, you know, business owners have to be realistic about what they can achieve.

Um, and like, let's be real. We all been tired since 2020. So like adding on more of this stuff on top of it is a lie. Um, so I think your phase approach really is, is great because I think that these incremental steps and awareness, I think that adds up to like a cumulative big, big impact without burning people out from overwhelm and stuff like that. So.

Jo: And I think it gives people time to almost, like, for it to become second nature, where, as you were saying, um, you just automatically, it just becomes the natural next step in the process. It no longer feels like, oh, this is a new project that I have to implement starting from this day until that day. It's that ongoing practice, which I really love.

And I feel like if people are always. Going through a practice of implementing something and seeing those changes, refining and tinkering with it, you can only get a better result than if you didn't do anything at all. And if you just burnt out after like one big project.

Laneen: Exactly. Yes. Something is better than nothing. Like don't try to like get for aim for perfection right out the out the gate. Just aim for, you know, some kind of improvement. And I think that even if you're not going to be the one to do these actual steps, just being aware of them. Like, I think it's also equally important to like, Pressure big companies that have money and have teams that can tackle digital accessibility to build the features to build the things that you need the tools that you need.

So even if you can't do it yourself, which is totally fine. There's no reason why you know, these megacorps and stuff should be releasing products without basic accessibility functions or why they should be like paywalling the functions behind like higher tiers. Like, don't even get me started on that.

Like, if you're locking your captions behind the enterprise level tier, like, Oh, I'm going to burn your whole project down to the ground. I see it more often than not. It's really disgusting. Yeah. So pressure the big companies so that they can give you the tools that you need to do, um, or at least, you know, be able to hire out for the services, um, for someone else to do them if you, if you can't.

So yeah, I think accessibility should not be seen like a bonus feature. I think it is a right point blank period, full stop. And so I, it drives me crazy when companies do that.

Jo: Wow. And does that also layer into, you say, don't talk about it, be about it. Is that something that layers back into the idea behind this as well, just in terms of like full integrity of a company, if you're going to have these practices and they are like. part of the company structure. It's like, don't make it feel like it's not accessible and portray like the fake image that you are being accessible.

Like, is that, is that what you mean by it?

Laneen: Yeah, that's spot on. And I think, I mean, I feel like we can all be a little performative social justice warriors online sometimes, you know what I mean? Like, it happens. Um, and that's also the easy thing for these companies. It's easy for them to be seen to be good, you know, um, but I think that like backing up, backing it up is really, really counts, you know, the tangible change.

And yes, yeah.

As a philosopher, all I do is think, think and think and think in circles, but like, like, so, you know, but I know that at some point talking will only get you so far. So it's also a reminder to myself to like, get out of my own head and to act, um, and to like, just remember. Why it's so important to digital accessibility, who it's for, who it benefits.

And it doesn't just benefit, you know, people think of digital accessibility as, Oh, it's for disabled people. It's not just for disabled people. You know, captions might help me who is hard of hearing or someone's deaf, but it might also help the mom who has their phone on mute. It might help the person on their commute.

It might help the person that, you know, auditory overload, and they don't want to deal with all the sounds and pings and stuff on their phone. So it helps so much, so many more people than just, you know, for disabled people or something like that. So I think the whole talk about it, you know, don't talk about it, be about it thing, it's just like a reminder to, to take action, um, and just don't be afraid to mess up cause you're going to mess up.

I have messed up so much, so, so much, you know, um, and it's going to happen. You, you, you won't be perfect, but I guarantee that like having. I guess the best way I think of it is having like an inch of action is more than a mile of intention. Like just try.

Donaji: Yeah, and like if you see if I think there's more value or I guess more it's there's more, um, forgiveness, perhaps, um, when you see somebody who's constantly trying and failing or trying and making mistakes versus somebody who's who talks about it, but then you never see any sort of. action or proaction or, or any sort of, um, uh, outcome, you know, from what they're talking about. Lenny, I'm so grateful to have you here and, um, I love, always, all the advice you give me, so I really appreciate you just, like, taking the time and giving me thoughtful answers, um, and also coming in here and just sharing so much about you with both of us.

Laneen: I mean, I love that you guys are so big on co creating. Um, and I feel like that's the magic for me is like in that communal inquiry and community action and stuff. So, um, I, I love that you guys have that approach and it just makes me so much more willing to answer questions or if I don't know the answer, find out or ask someone who does.

So I love that co creating space that you guys curate for people. It's so awesome.

Donaji: Um, I'm so curious. Why would people... use Substack versus another email list builder. What's the difference? I know that you can get paid, right? 

Laneen: Yep.

Donaji: Is that the main difference?

Laneen: Um, I think, I mean, it's a big driver, um, for like writers to be able to have a subscription model. Um, but I also think that it's It has a lot of the features that maybe people are burnt out on social media, like algorithms and stuff like that, you know, like it's, you can find your people more intentionally on Substack and you can way more easily curate what you come across and what you sign up for and who you engage with, um, which I love, like I read Substack literally on Sunday mornings, like open the app and like, I read it like my Sunday paper for the few people that I, you know, subscribe to and read, and it feels like such a less chaotic space for me than social media.

And I'm like, yeah. I like this. So like, that's why, yeah. And I feel like it's more conversational to people comment and things like that. Um, so for me, it just feels healthier right now than social media. Um, and it just feels like a lot less of a lift. I'm not on some content, you know, creation hamster wheel all the time.

Got to make a post, got to make real, got to do the tweak, got to do the, whatever the bird app is called now, you know, like it's too much, but I'm like, here, I'm going to write some stuff. I'm going to email it to my subscribers. Peace out. Like, that's it. So it's great. 

Jo: That feels so much easier. Yeah. Because I feel like sometimes on Instagram, you feel like you're working for Instagram. I'm not working for my own business, right?

Laneen: Man, I really feel like I should get a check from them. Yes. We, they need to cut our checks, cut our checks. We are fueling your platform. Are you serious? Um, yeah, it depends on your intention. You know, it's, there's always a difference between like discovery platforms versus relationship building platforms.

So maybe, you know, Instagram is your discovery platform where people find you, but then sub stack is really where you stay connected to them and where you really have those deeper conversations where you're not limited by like. Caption character count or something. So it does depend on what your intent is.

But for me right now, it just, Ooh, it feels like a breath of fresh air.

Jo: Can definitely see how resonates so strongly with people, like, because that whole aspect of long form content, it's a reaction to the short form content that we keep seeing where I feel like my retinas are getting burnt every time I'm using the app, right? Whereas there is something that's so lovely about, as you were saying, like, just On a Sunday morning, it's part of the ritual of like having, uh, you know, an article with, you can actually enjoy reading the article and take it all in rather than be on the scroll.

Like, it just feels so much different. So yeah, I'm glad that you talked about it. Cause it is something that I was, um, interested in as well.

Donaji: So where can people find you? And yeah, pitch away.

Laneen: All the things. Uh, well, I hang out on Substack, my newsletter, um, it's mostly about, it's kind of broken down in three sections where you always get one thing about accessibility, you get, um, or a few things, um, some things about diversity and inclusion, and then fun things about, like, design and art, so those are usually those three content buckets all the time, and then I might toss in something spicy, the song that I'm listening to that week, or something like that, you know, just, Yeah, a little more fun.

Um, but that's where I like to hang out. And, um, I do hang out on Instagram as well. I'm more of a stories person now, apparently that's where I'm at. So if y'all are posting on the feed, I'm not seeing it. Sorry. Um, but if you're in stories, I will. Uh, and I'm also in my newly opened community, uh, called the Sublation Community, no cool name yet, but yeah.

Donaji: Yes.

Jo: Nice.

Donaji: It's awesome.

Donaji: Saw this. Okay. Tell us a little bit about this.

Laneen: Um, it's really just for people that kind of want to start and sustain, um, like a long term practice of inclusion and digital accessibility. So it's the newsletter, but expand it, you know, so we have fun things like I'm obsessed with naming fun things. So we have like town halls and we have like, you know, the neighborhood watch team and like all these like cutesy Animal Crossing.

Donaji: love it. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Laneen: My vibe I'm going for. I'm like, how can we get Animal Crossing cozy vibes on Discord? Like, that's what we do. Um, yeah, I try to be serious business a little bit there. You know, I talk about like education and I like knowledge sharing and, you know, lived experience. People share those things as well.

Um, so just all about like co learning, co designing and co creating, um, and for anyone who wants to like build that long term practice of inclusion and accessibility.

Donaji: Is this like a, what do you mean by community? Is it like, what platform are they going into where they can have these conversations?

Laneen: Right now it's on discord. Um, that was just my jam I was familiar with. It was easy. It felt like slack, but fun. Um, and I didn't need all the bells and whistles of all the other platforms. So it's, it's pretty low pressure. Like, I don't need, I don't want people to feel like, well, there's another place that I have to check all the time, like drop in, drop out, you know, ask a question, see what we're chatting about.

We have a channel called touch some grass where people just share pictures when they were out in the walk or 

Jo: Oh my God. That's so nice. 

Laneen: Yeah, like, you know, so it's not always like heavy inclusion and accessibility stuff. Sometimes it's just fun life, you know, we share playlists, music playlists in there.

So yeah, it's, it's, it's a good little mix of like learn and also have fun.

Donaji: Great! Okay, so everybody can find all of these links in your Instagram, right?

Donaji: Alright, so we're going to put that on the show notes and tag you also on Instagram. So, um, thank you so much, Laneen! I love talking to you and learning more about all this stuff that you do. And yeah, so go follow Laneen and learn more about all these things.

And she, you're always posting like really great stuff on your stories. Very thought provoking things, so I really appreciate that.

Laneen: Awesome. My main thing is snack recommendations. If y'all have them, please give them. I love to snack. Literally, it is in my title, lover of snacks. So please share them.

Donaji: That's true. Alright. Well, thank you so much. This was so great.