We are back with another conscious conversation and interview. In this episode, Jo chats with Helen Koker. Helen has been such an inspiration to Jo; from the way she is able to effortlessly capture the essence of every product through her unique photographic style to the way she navigates through her business with intention.

We learned about Helen’s approach for finding inspiration and playing with creativity. We also talk about the importance of cultivating a healthy mindset and finding your own path in work and business.

Check out Helen’s stunning work at @modernalchemy.studio and at her online home helenkoker.com

Listen to the Brand Journey Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or Podbean.

View transcript for this episode here.

Follow @thebrandjourney on Instagram.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jo: Hello everyone and thank you for being a part of another episode of the brand journey podcast. Donají and I are doing some very special interview based episodes moving forwards, where we will take turns interviewing some of the conscious creatives and visionary business owners that have inspired us along our own business and brand journey.

So today I will be connecting with someone who has absolutely inspired me in how I work and see the world differently and creatively as well. And she is Helen Koker. She is an art director, multidisciplinary, creative, amazing photographer and designer with a love for visual communication. And I think In terms of like, your work, Helen, it absolutely captivates, inspires, and mesmerizes me every time I see it.

Her work, if you haven't seen it, is absolutely mesmerizing in that it really integrates that modern world with soulfulness as well. There's always this element of, um, I don't know what it is, but it's very magical and it's very almost immersive. Like it brings me into a completely new experience. Um, and that is just for your, your product photography.

Artwork that I've seen, but also you do branding and graphic design as well, which is absolutely amazing. So welcome to the branch journey podcast, Helen. Hope you're having a lovely day so far.

Helen: Hi, Jo. Yes, I am having a lovely day and especially chatting to you. Um, thank you so much for your kind words. It goes both ways. Your work's really beautiful and we've been lucky to have our paths cross. Thanks to you, um, kind of brought me on board one of your client projects for branding and packaging that you were doing so that I could work on the photography.

So we've been really lucky to cross paths in that way. And, um, yeah, I really just appreciate your kind words so much. And thank you. What you said about, um, you know, bringing through the modernity and also kind of having that soulfulness in our work. I think something that we always strive For is to really walk the line between commercial product, photography and artistic still life.

I want the images to be art. I want the images to feel like something. I don't want them to lack soul. And I think when we think of commercial work, sometimes things can feel really soulless. So it's a massive compliment that you, you brought that up. Thank you.

Jo: No worries, of course. And I wanted to start off by speaking about how you bring it all together, I guess. Um, in terms of bringing that element of soulfulness into commercial work and you also define yourself as a multidisciplinary designer and creative. And I'm interested to know what your definition of multidisciplinary is and how that actually works for your business.

How do you put all the pieces together?

Helen: Well, I think on your second point about being multidisciplinary creative, I think innately as human beings, as children, especially like we're all creative, right? And that creativity can almost be boiled down and simplified to just curiosity at its core, right? It's a curiosity to understand things, to communicate things.

And I think being multidisciplinary is just taking that innate creativity and curiosity and applying it across multiple specializations. And for me, I'm a creative thinker in a broad kind of way. So it's not necessarily just about what I do for work. I apply that in other parts of my life too, in my personal life, you know, whether it be, um, gardening, which I know I've, I've listened to the podcast and I heard you guys talk about gardening so we can relate on that one.

But whatever it is, I try to apply that creativity to it. And, and I guess in terms of work and in terms of business, I've been fortunate to have quite a rich, um, creative background. And my business partner, who is also my sibling, Ian, who is amazing, also comes from a very rich creative background. And because we've both worked in different areas, Um, he's both qualified as a jeweler and he also spent, you know, um, nearly 20 years working in post production and running a really large art department and working in print.

And then my formal education is actually in, um, creative direction and styling. So I was really fortunate to spend time on, on large fashion sets and kind of, um, Be immersed in that world and then, you know, do assisting on kind of other creative projects. And I guess there were so many rich sources of inspiration and experience from both of us that it felt, um, right.

To apply that across, you know, a number of specializations. We're both really passionate about photography. And I think that that's, um, what we're kind of, I guess, best known for and what I'm best known for, but we also both love design. Like we both live and breathe design and we're so inspired by design.

And I think that having that background has actually really enriched our photography style as well. Um, So yeah, we do a little bit of everything. We do digital design, we do print design, branding, packaging. We've just worked on some really amazing packaging projects in the last little while that were just so inspiring with brands who are amazing.

Um, and yeah, then product photography. So we're really lucky because sometimes when we work with a brand on branding, like from the inception, we can work. all the way through right through to launch, you know, with creating the launch assets, whether it be, um, EDMs or whether it be print pieces and packaging or whether it be like, um, you know, advertising material or animations or, um, product photography.

And I think being able to kind of have that holistic view and, you know, apply ourselves means that. It's never boring. know, I think it's never stale. We're not, um, stuck in front of the camera the whole time. We're not in the studio the whole time. Sometimes we're on the computer, you know. Sometimes I'm out and about sourcing for props.

It kind of never gets old, which I think, um, as a creative we tend to get bored, right? Pretty easily.

Jo: So true. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Helen: It works really well.

Jo: I love that because I think, yeah, it definitely gives you the opportunity to continue exploring in different ways. And I think everything that you, you're saying around, you know, it's not just about like how we work and we don't just flip the creative switch on when we're working on projects, but creatively it comes out in so many other aspects.

And that's sort of where the inspiration comes from. It kind of integrates and mixes and blends, and it creates that element of almost layered magic that it's so much part of your work. Um, I also loved in an interview, I was listening, um, just in terms of like, uh, you would be speaking about what you loved to do, like in terms of play and that element of playfulness and curiosity.

Um, I'm curious, just like, what did you do creatively as a child? Like, what did you enjoy doing that was fun and exciting?

Helen: Well, um, that's a fun question actually. So we grew up with very hippie parents in, um, northern New South Wales where I'm currently located and we didn't have electricity. We, um, lived basically in a, in a little shack, which I loved. Um, you know, mom and dad were always in the garden. Um, we had a big property, lots of animals.

We knew all of our neighbors. So. I think we kind of had to be creative as children because we weren't like glued in front of a TV, right? I was born in the late eighties. And, um, you know, I think there was a lot less screen time back then in general, but certainly for me, not having electricity when we grew up, like creativity was all about, um, being immersed in nature and play was all about being immersed in nature.

So, you know, just the usual kid stuff, like drawing, building things outside, um, and imaginative play, which I think is such an important part of creativity and important part of childhood. You know, making things up, these kind of fantasy worlds, and, and I think that was a massive part of my childhood. And I think also working with my sibling, working with Ian.

We connect on that deeper level because we had that shared experience growing up and we had um, you know, all of those kind of shared imaginary games that we would play when we were children and that imagination and playfulness comes through now in our work too. And yeah, so just, just the usual stuff, I guess.

But sans electricity. If we wanted to watch the TV, um, my mom or dad could plug in the car battery to the TV and we could watch Inspector Gadget. Which, again, also creative.

Jo: Very creative. Yeah. You didn't expect that he would have like, like go go gadget. What was it? He had really long legs or you could like flex and bend. 

Helen: Yeah, and I remember those things like, um, he would, um, Oh, he would do all these crazy things. I'm having so many flashbacks. 

Jo: Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm also an eighties child and I was so remember inspector gadget and that like element, as you said, of like fantasy and bringing that. Almost those different worlds into your imagination and reenacting them. Like, I remember playing with my friends because I was an only child. And I think my creativity came also from the fact that, you know, because you don't have the. Like for me, it was like, I didn't have the connection to other children to play with the stimulation that kind of kept me occupied all the time. I had to find other ways to keep myself amused and excited and interested in life. Um, I remember like making my own inspector gadget, like. Book, cause I think he had like a computer or something like that.

Um, or Penny had a, like a, a funky computer and I didn't have a computer at the time, so I thought, oh, I would just draw my own paper computer and like sub in, you know, like little cards with different screens and it was like that kind of thing that was so fun. It was like just those projects that would take like a week of your time, but felt so exciting and so fun to do.

Helen: Yeah, actually, um, Ian did, Ian did something really similar. He, um, always loved computers. We never had one. I don't even know how he knew about computers, but perhaps that was why Inspector Gadget. Um, and he did something similar, like, I think he drew on this piece of cardboard and made this little kind of computer and yeah.

Exactly. I think that's where creativity stems from. It's creativity at its heart. Like I said, it's curiosity and it's also. Problem solving. And that's a big part of, of the work application. And, you know, realistically we were solving problems as kids by making those things, you know, if we were bored, we had to kind of figure it out.

Um, parents in the eighties were just like, yeah, whatever to do.

Jo: What are they doing? It's so weird.

Helen: Yeah. Do your own thing. If you're bored, figure it out. So, um, I think, you know, that's such an enriching experience. And I was also thinking when you were talking about those little projects, I was remembering this story. My mom always likes to tell me about how I was late for school one day and she let me be late for school and took me in five or 10 minutes later because I had been fastidiously working on this little creation all morning and I was to it and she just did not want to interrupt my creative flow.

And it was this tiny Barbie sandwich that I had been making out of like all of these little colored kind of crepe paper and all of these little things. And I was really delicate and careful about it. And, you know, talking to you has reminded me of that memory and of, of mom telling me about that, because I think.

It's kind of like prop styling. I was already doing it, you know, and on a very basic level, but I think all of the creative stuff that I do throughout work is essentially play in a way, you know, um, sometimes it doesn't feel like it, don't get me wrong. But it does come back to that kind of childlike sense of exploration and how do we problem solve and what can we imagine and how can we bring that into real life?

Jo: Mm. Mm. And would you say that that is a big part of like the creative process? Do you have like a process or framework of sorts or do you kind of allow time to space to incubate so that you can really dial into all those nuances?

Helen: I think it's a bit of both. I think it's really important to have frameworks and there's certainly, um, things that I do and processes that I follow, um, to kind of help foster that creative thinking. But I also think. You can't necessarily switch it on when it's not working, right? If you're not in a state of creative flow, you literally cannot force it, regardless of what process you have in place, regardless of what framework you're sort of looking at creativity is a muscle and you can train yourself to, to kind of really pull it out when you're not feeling it, but to a certain degree, we all do our best work when, um, It's that kind of spontaneous magic and we are allowing time and space just to do its thing, like you were saying.

So I think there's a, there's a balance there. You know, there's times where we're not feeling creative, where we still have to produce really good work and the framework really helps with that. But when it comes to like true creative magic, that's, um. more along the lines of nature, you know, it can't really be tamed or controlled.

It just is what it is. And it happens at the most unexpected times. And we get this, this spark, like, I'm sure you've felt it. And I'm sure for anyone who's listening, like we all have those moments where we're doing something and then. It, we're just absolutely sparked by inspiration and we kind of almost have to get it out because it's like this burning thing, right?

And you have to put pen to paper or, or sketch something or, you know, go and find a reference that you were thinking of or make a plan to, to do whatever it is, whether it's the design or shoot or, you know, whatever you're kind of working on. But I think that inspiration just, it comes at the weirdest times, you know?

And when it's on, it's amazing and you can't turn it off and you're excited and there's so many ideas. And then when it's off, it's like, huh? How? How do I do this again?

Jo: go? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I find that it's, I remember, um, Elizabeth Gilbert speaking about it in her book, Big Magic, where she describes how, I think it was a poet who almost downloads this poem and it's. It arrives almost fully formed in their head, and they just need to write it down to be able to like, get it all out on paper and poet actually has to write it backwards because she has to almost like trace the tail and take it by the tail and follow it all the way through, because then she's like, Oh, then I've got the order right.

Helen: Oh!

Jo: And there's almost this race against time before it kind of dissipates and sort of disappears. It kind of feels like that. Sometimes it's so intangible that it's just like a burst of creative energy that sort of whooshes through and you're like, oh, I've got to capture that. Otherwise I'll get out of the shower and forget what, what that epiphany was all about.

Helen: Yeah, the shower always kind of brings the creative juice. I don't know why. Like, it's something about being in the water. Actually, um, you know, you speaking about that example of a poet, I'm sure it wasn't this, but one of my favorite poets, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, one of his poems that I love, which, um, I never know.

I always get the name wrong. I don't know if it's Xanadu or if it's Kubla Khan. Um, anyway, it's that poem, but. I think he was really common to be like high on opium and doing all sorts of stuff if you're a poet back then. But I think he actually came up with that one in a dream and he woke up from the dream and he had to write it down and he had to write it down quickly before he forgot.

And it's quite a long poem. And then it's unfinished because what happened is someone actually came and knocked on his door and interrupted the thought so that You bringing that up really reminded me of kind of um, that poem and that poet and yeah I think it's very much like that um, you know we're in this zone and it's like we can get ripped out of it pretty quickly if the phone rings or if something happens you know we're sensitive creatures and when it's on it's on and you kind of just have to work quickly and and get as much done as you can and get it out on paper so you don't forget that brilliant thought that you had.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah. And how do you actually, I know that with sort of creative work, sometimes it feels like we're in our own like little world as everything kind of like the beautiful mind sort of pieces drop into place. How do you find, um, collaborations? Like how do you collaborate or bring in a client? Um, and, and also how do you work with your brother as well?

Like I'm interested in. That kind of sharing of creativity.

Helen: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting talking point. Um, like I was saying before, I think my brother and I have this kind of sense of understanding that, um, transcends professional practice because we do have that sibling relationship. Um, so it's kind of like you can get, it's like a best friend.

You can give someone a look and just the look says it all, you know exactly what they're thinking. So there's a lot of. that kind of, I, I guess like telepathic crossover when we're working together. And because we have a lot of shared experience, we also have a lot of different experiences from, you know, when we sort of grew up and went our own separate ways and did our own different things.

But I think because we have such a history of shared experience. That informs a lot of our work, whether it's consciously or subconsciously. And so a lot of the time we're thinking the same thing. We are also quite different in other ways, but. It's very easy to collaborate together because there's no, um, fear either in that relationship of hurting someone's feelings or saying, Hey, I don't like that.

Or I want to go this direction instead. Or have you thought of this? It's an easier kind of, um, flow, I guess. Don't get me wrong. We used to hurt each other's feelings sometimes, but, um, I think there's more. Honesty and ability to be really straight up. Whereas I guess with the client relationship, you know, you have to be really careful to manage, um, the emotions of your clients when you're providing feedback or steering them in a certain direction.

I think it's an interesting one collaborating. I always want to take on the ideas of clients. And I think that everyone is, is creative and, um, Everyone has really good ideas, but I also think it's our role as professionals to guide them and to tell them, Hey, that's not going to work and here's why. Um, here's a different alternate solution and you've come to me and you're paying me money because I have expertise in this field.

And so, um, I am going to tell you things that you don't necessarily want to hear because. that's my due diligence and I wouldn't, it wouldn't sit right with me to just go along with every single thing that you say, because you're not coming to me for that. Otherwise you'd just be doing it yourself. So I think there's this kind of fine push and pull with clients and, you know, often, They'll come to us with like a basic idea and that will spark a sort of bigger idea and then we'll have a conversation about that and I love that because without their initial briefing or their initial kind of thoughts, I probably wouldn't.

get to the end direction that I end up sort of going in, you know, because maybe it's something really different that I wouldn't have thought of myself, or, um, it's an area that I'm not comfortable with or it's sort of not my personal style or, you know, and I think that's a big one as well, right? Working creatively because we want to attract clients who the work, the projects are going to.

align with our style. Um, but also you have to be really careful not to like, you have to put your personality and your style into things to make them beautiful and to do your best work, but you also have to be careful not to overshadow what is the best thing for the brand or the client based on your own personal prejudice, you know,

Jo: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like sometimes being able to connect into your client and seeing like that initial briefing that you speak about where you get a sense of the direction that they want to explore or where their current thoughts are at, you can always. I would say like, I find that I'm, it gives me a lovely starting point to be like, Ooh, where could we go?

Like, where's that potential? Like, what's the, like, final, the biggest vision going to look like for them? If we stretched it a little further, if we, I took it out of the comfort zone because I find that a lot of the time the initial briefing can feel for a lot of clients can feel like the an aspiration comfort zone, but I always want to take it beyond that.

It's almost like the house that you haven't moved into. It doesn't feel like it's quite yours. But it's almost something that is still attainable, like in, in the future, it's where you're going. Right. Um, but also you need that general direction to be able to hook into the energy of their brand so that you don't, like, as you were saying that you're not overshadowing it or coming into strong with your own, like: I want to explore this, so I'm going to go completely in this direction.

Helen: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's got to be a balance. And I think, like I said, I think the best creative work happens when there is personal inspiration, but part of being a really good creative is being able to find that in the area that your client, that works for your client. Right. So it's how can like, say you get a project, it's you know, it works.

You're really competent and confident in all of the deliverables. Um, you know what the client needs, but it's not really necessarily where you want to take it. You have to be able to look at those projects and Pick parts of them that are going to be fun. Pick the things that you love about them and run with that because that is what's going to make the work really special.

And so I think, um, obviously we all want to work with clients that we're deeply aligned with. In a general sense, we have to be able to find ways to love every project and ways to love things that aren't in the, um, You know, same direction as we would have initially planned it. And by, by doing that and kind of bringing in that sense of joy and, and kind of exploration into ideas that are outside of your comfort zone, you just end up with the most magical results.

And, you know, it's the best thing for your client and for you and, and it broadens your horizon and kind of, you can bring that into your next projects or into your, your overarching kind of sense of, of where you want to be as a creative.

Jo: I love that perspective because I feel like for a lot of designers, we've always been told to almost like choose. Our clients really carefully. And I'm not saying that we don't, there has to be some alignment in terms of like values, um, at the end of the day for it to be like a successful project.

Helen: Of course!

Jo: But I love that aspect of that not everyone's going to have the same, like. aesthetic stylistic preferences as us, um, they're going to challenge us. And that challenge of being, you know, outside the comfort zone and growing creatively in that area absolutely brings so much joy. I love that perspective. 

Um, I want to speak a little bit about, you know, like how you actually move through challenges along the way, um, because I know that not just like in the projects, but like, how did you navigate some of the biggest challenges when it came to your business over the last few years? Cause we spoke about, um, the, the devastating floods that happened a few years back.

So that was that 2021? 

Helen: 2022. Yeah. 

Jo: And I'm, I'm curious if you're open to sharing, like, how did you navigate that time? How did you get to where you are and almost see that, like, move through that experience?

Helen: Yeah, I think, um, look, it's been a big couple of years, so that flood was at the start of, um, 2022. It was in February 2022, and, um, that was in the Northern Rivers, for anyone listening who doesn't know what the heck we're talking about. So, um, this is a flood that kind of devastated it. All the way from Brisbane, um, down to quite significantly further south than where I am, which is Northern New South Wales.

And a lot of, um, you know, rural towns and, um, a lot of people in the country really kind of suffered. There were land slips, people were cut off. It was quite horrific. And the town that I was living in and, and where my business was at the time, Leesmoor in New South Wales, was one of the worst hit. And. It was a really shocking experience because, um, Lismore floods, it's on a flood plain, we know that, we knew that, um, the house that we were renting at the time, um, which upstairs was all, a personal house, downstairs was the work studio, um, I looked up all of the like historical um, flood data.

It had never flooded before. I looked up the floor levels, I looked at all of the like predictive models, and we just never expected it to get us, and it did. And um, Basically, we went to bed really stressed and we woke up really early in the morning at like four or five o'clock. 

Something just woke us up. I don't know. Everyone in the house was awake and I looked out the back of, um, of the house and I saw that the entire downstairs was already flooded.

 Like every, the office was already underwater basically. Um, so it was, So it was a really big shock, but, um, not to, to sort of get into too much detail about, I guess, what it was like, but the, the rebuilding phase was really interesting because on a community level, on a local community level, people really came together and that's such a beautiful thing to see and, um, you know, on a professional level, I was really fortunate, Ian and I were really fortunate. 

I knew that we needed help and, and, you know, I was quite reluctant to ask that because I think, so it can be embarrassing or shameful somehow, which is so silly, but I knew that we just lost all of our equipment and we'd lost all of our income, we'd lost out all of our personal stuff because it ended up coming upstairs and devastating the entire house basically.

Um, and the rest of the town, like just everything changed in an instant. Um, and so, I was really lucky I had people reaching out to me and saying like, hey, like we really want to support you. We really want to help you like financially, because we know that this is going to be really challenging. And so I was encouraged to set up a GoFundMe and we were really, really fortunate to get a lot of support through that, which I'm still thankful for every day.

And like, you know, as I look around the room, it's like, oh, the GoFundMe paid for that. Like the GoFundMe helped me with this. So like. In terms of how we rebuilt, we were supported by the creative community. We were supported by, um, our peers, by our clients. We were so fortunate in that regard. And there were some government grants for small businesses, um, you know, if you'd lost all of your equipment and I'm talking like into the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of loss. 

So it was a massive, massive thing for us and this isn't like, you know generational wealth that we were just able to go out and buy this stuff. This was like accumulated over, you know more than a decade of kind of like, oh we want to we want to get into this thing, let's buy this piece of equipment and like really heavily investing back into the business.

So it was like a massive, massive, big thing to lose it, but even a bigger thing to have everyone so readily support us and, um, uplift us in a time of, of massive loss and like our creative community were just incredible. You know, like, everyone in Australia and then all like our, our creative friends, overseas, people who are working in the same industry as us.

And I will say that that's something that I love about our industry is that creatives do tend to support each other. Um, you know, it's collaboration over competition and certainly that's something that I've experienced firsthand. 

And, you know, in having this conversation with you today, you know, like, it's so amazing to be part of a community that is so supportive and that, you know, really do want to help each other out in times of need and support each other, whether it's through advice or kind of resource sharing or, you know, whether it's supporting each other after a tragedy or, you know, It's, it's amazing.

So how did we rebuild with, with the help of everyone else, basically, you know, we couldn't have done it on our own and we're still kind of getting to a place of equilibrium, which I know you and I kind of spoke about previously, like it just threw our balance off with everything. And I think we've still been rebuilding that and kind of still learning to, to.

Bring that resilience back. It's been a challenging time, and it's already nearly been two years. But, um, you know, with COVID happening at the same time, and then there's been a lot of, um, changes with the economy and with the kind of, uh, global environment. So it's been a big time for everyone, not just for us.

And I feel like it happened at a time where everyone was going through it in some way or another. And, um, you I don't know whether it's that kind of shared, um, understanding of the turmoil that, that was COVID or that kind of, um, got us all a bit rocked over the last few years, but people are just so generous.

Like, I dunno, people are just so empathetic and amazing and we're just so lucky and yeah, I, I'm just really thankful every day. And there's not a day that. That passes where I don't kind of think about how lucky we are because yeah, we, we really are like I, we had the most amazing things like a brilliant, um, artist who's also Australian, um, Lucinda Jones, who does the most incredible paintings.

Go and look her up if you haven't heard of her. She's really cool. She's great. She painted something and auctioned it off. And like, I literally bought a computer with that money. Like, it's not like, this isn't, this isn't small. Like these are massive things that are like so essential to our business practice.

And yeah, I think lucky is an understatement. There's not enough gratitude that I can express to everyone. Essentially.

Jo: And I think like, the community as you were saying, like, I noticed how much like the local community was coming together to support everyone in need and I think it was like, in the face of all of that devastation, it was incredibly heartwarming to see how many people were like, coming together or like, asking how they can help and like either their time or their services, whatever it was.

Um, so yeah, it, it sounds like sometimes like, and we talked about this before, it's just like the, you know, the steps forward, like the mini steps forwards to like the next day. It's like, well, what could we do today? Like, and how could we like continue to build forwards? Um, And that resilience that you gain along the way, um, has been really inspiring for me, both professionally and personally as well.

So thank you so much for sharing. Um, I also loved a post. I was like kind of stalking Instagram for a little bit. And you had this like post in, I think like at the start of 2023, um, and It was a really beautiful post about like the ins and outs of 2023 and you had like little phrases on there just in terms of what you were ready to let go of what you were ready to shift and move forwards with.

So some of those things that you said was, um. You know, some of the actions was around being okay with saying no and taking even if it feels scary, not apologizing for things, um, or not saying things are fine when they aren't. Um, and I'd love to know, like, since you wrote that post, like what's changed, like over the last, you know, year.

So how are you finishing like 2023 off?

Helen: Well, I think, um, yeah, that was a funny little post. It was my ins and outs, you know, what's in, what's out. And I think, um, it was really fun. Like a number of people were doing that. I was jumping on a trend essentially, but also just like having my own spin on it. And I think, um, there was some really silly, silly things and I've got it in front of me.

Like I had, um, in the outs paying 6 for a side of avocado and it's Brown or completely smooshed to oblivion. Like, no, that is out. Um, but on a more serious note, I think putting pen to paper or putting something out into the world and saying like, Hey, this is my intention and setting an intention. is such a powerful tool.

So certainly some of those intentions have come to fruition in 2023 for me and, you know, setting, setting boundaries. Some of those are around setting boundaries, like saying no, um, you know, instead of saying yes, but meaning no in my head, which is something that I have had the tendency to do. Um, I think I've been definitely so much better at that.

And I think that as a human being, um, and certainly personally and in my personal life, I really value like radical transparency and people being really open and honest and upfront, um, and direct and not kind of avoiding their truth in order to protect someone else's feelings. So I think, um, I've definitely been better at saying no and realizing that my responsibility is to myself.

And of course I need to be kind within that, but I'm also not responsible for others perceptions or reactions. I need to be responsible for, for what I do and what I put out into the world and kind of, um, you know, just making sure that I'm being true to myself. So I have said no to some things. Um, I sometimes need to be re encouraged in that area.

And actually my therapist a couple of weeks ago said to me, you've got to say no more. Um, so it's. It's not linear, right? Progress is never linear. So I go up and down, but definitely some things have changed. I think, um, not saying everything's okay when it's not, that's a really big one. And that's the big one in business as well, right?

Um, wometimes we have the tendency to be like, Oh, it's fine. Oh, it's okay. And it's really not okay. It's actually like put a massive strain on us or it's pushed out another timeline and we're really stressed and we're burnt out. And like we had personal plans and they've all gone out the window because, you know, there's kind of a change in a client project that maybe was outside of scope or whatever.

And I think it's so important to. uplift ourselves and each other and the industry as a whole by saying, okay, you know, that's not okay. We want to help you. So here are some solutions, but it's not just this blank acceptance of, um, things that aren't really fine. Right. And I think it's hard. You have to be a bit of a bit of a hard ass to, um, to do that.

Because if you're anything like me, you always feel like, oh, it's so mean to say no, or, oh, I just want to like the sort of individual person in me just wants to be like, no, that's totally fine. Let me bend over backwards and help you with that thing. But, um, you have to kind of encourage yourself not to do that and to sit in the discomfort of saying no, or of saying, hey, actually look, that's not fine.

Um, you know, that really doesn't work for me or, hey, thanks for coming to me with that. However, these are actually the parameters or the scope or whatever it is. And, um, yeah, it's a constant, constant learning and relearning that I'll have to do for the rest of my life because my natural inclination is just to be helpful and kind because of course, that's how you want to be.

But I think you, you have to be selfish in order to help others. You also have to be selfish, not as a bad word, not as this sort of thing where you're, you're forsaking everyone else's needs, but just where you're filling your own cup so that you are really able to serve the people that, um, you know, you're working with.

And if you're not filling your own cup. It's all gonna turn to crap.

Jo: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love what you say about this because I feel like it is. So difficult for a lot of people to learn. It's like an art of saying no. And the first time you say no, you kind of take yourself by surprise and it feels so weird to even say it. And I remember the first time I said, no, I kind of over delivered on the no.

And I was like, no, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Helen: Absolutely not. Yeah.

Jo: It was like such a hard no. And then it's only now. I've said no a few times that I'm like gradually learning to find the no, that feels firm, but is still kind and holds those values that feels like me, that feels true to me because I feel like the first time that I said no, it didn't feel like me.

It just felt like I was having an out of body experience, but I needed to have that in order to learn what did feel right. Um, and yeah. I’m still learning.

Helen: I think also, yeah. And I think, like, congratulations on saying no. And I think, you know, however it comes out. Whether it's a bit too powerful or whether it's kind of a little bit softer and, and, you know, with a hint of negotiation, I think it's a really great tool to have in your arsenal because, um, as women as well, we are often expected to say things with more politeness, less firmness, less directness.

You know, if we're too assertive, we're called bitchy. If you know, If we show up and communicate in the same straightforward way that a male in our industry might. be open to communicating with, we're sort of, um, treated as like, whoa, difficult to work with, right? Um, so I think it's really important for everyone to, and I, you know, I, I know there's a lot of guys out there who have trouble saying no to, you know, you want to do a favor to everyone and be everyone's mate, but you have to also remember that.

Not everyone's going to say yes back to you and that's okay. You would never like, I don't expect other people to bend over backwards or do favors for me. So I don't know why I'm so hellbent on always being like,

Jo: True.

Helen: I have to just keep reminding myself. It's okay to say no. It's okay to communicate in a way that is authentic to what you're thinking and understand that.

Yeah. Like sometimes people might. not receive your message in the way that you wanted them to, but like as long as you have had integrity and honesty in your conversation and you've, um, come to the party with the aim of, of being kind and, and, you know, you can't control anything other than that. You can't control other people.

You have to do what's right for you. I just keep coming back to what I was saying about having a full cup, meaning that you can actually serve other people really well. If you're not practicing self care, if you're not, um, staying true to yourself and if you're overextending yourself all the time, you certainly aren't going to be the best friend, partner, business partner, um, you know, or professional that you can be.

So you're doing a disservice to your clients at the end of the day, even though you think like you, you're doing them a favor. You're actually not.

Jo: Yeah. A hundred percent. And in terms of looking forwards for 2024, what are you looking forward to exploring? Um, either creatively or personally? I know. Professionally, creatively and personally. I know that you mentioned that you're building a website or you're working on your website. Um, yeah, what, what can you share with us for your plans for 2024?

Helen: Oh, the long awaited personal rebrand stuff, you know, right? 

Jo: Yeah.

Helen: Ian and I actually had quite a lot of stuff that we would have been ready to launch, like, just, um, around the time of the floods and then that all Um, thrown out the window and so we've just been working away slowly on, um, I guess refining and perfecting the way that we show up to the world and also what our offering is and who we want to work with and, and all of that sort of thing.

So there's a lot, um, bubbling under the surface that we're hoping to have more time, um, to invest in over the coming months. I think it's. It's been a really busy year too, you know, like we always get caught up with client work and, and our personal work, our personal professional work, the work that's on the business, not in the business. It gets put to the side. 

So for 2024, I'm really hoping that we come home to ourselves in terms of, um, ensuring where. Putting that stuff first. Um, it's been a tumultuous couple of years. Balance was really thrown off. And I think for 2024, I want to be doing three or four client work days and one or two personal project days. Um, you know, whether it's um, education or whether it's working on updating the site or whether it's working on updating internal documents or whatever it kind of is, um, or whether it's going to the beach and having a swim, right?

Whatever it is, I think it's really important to kind of reinstate that balance. And I don't, really believe in, um, a five day work week. So 2024 less than five days. That's my, my number one goal.

Jo: Love it. Love it. And where can people find you if they wanted to connect with you as well?

Helen: Um, so they can find us on Instagram predominantly where I have been very lazy in the last few months, but I'm trying to post more. So it's at modernalchemy.studio and that will also be our new URL. So hopefully in 2024, we'll finally launch that baby off the ground. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me.

Reach out, say hello. I love connecting with other creatives and, um, certainly like the majority of our followers, I think are other creatives. So, yeah.

Jo: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for such a beautiful conversation, Helen. It is so lovely to actually have this space on a Friday to chat with you and dive deeper into all the things that inspire you, how you've grown, all the things you're looking forward to as well. So thank you so much for being on our podcast.

Helen: Thank you for having me. It's been beautiful. And I look forward to, um, listening to all the other episodes, probably not listening to this one back. I hate the sound of my own voice, but, um, I do love listening to your podcast. So I'll be doing that in the future. And thank you again for having me. It's been beautiful.

Jo: Thanks so much. And thank you so much to everyone for listening in and we'll see you in the next episode.